Ruger MKIII stove pipes

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:49 pm

Ruger MKIII. I had a stove pipe today, unfortunately during a match and lost 3X on alibi. They happen pretty rarely (both the stovepipes and my Xs

), using the bulk Federal value pack ammo from walmart, which since I switched lot #'s is cycling flawlessly (except the stove pipes). Maybe 3 over 2000 rounds. But nonetheless, I'd like to eliminate or reduce them.

What causes them, and what can I do about it? Most of the time my casings are launching well away from me. It's been about 1000 rounds since I cleaned the gun and maybe its cleanliness related around the extractor?

The good news is I put that round out of my head during the match. Bad news is its haunting me now

ekaphoto · Post by **ekaphoto** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:14 pm

Most malfunctions are magazine related. Have you tried switching mags? I usually number my mags then track what one is in the pistol when I have a malfunction. If it is the same mag over and over that is usually the problem. Even good mags go bad if they get bumped and the feed lips get bent etc.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:36 pm

Thanks for the tip, but perhaps I did not use the term stove pipe correctly. What happened is that the spent round got caught by the bolt as the bolt came forward and was loading another round. In other words, I had one live round halfway fed in the chamber, but the bolt was stopped by the spent brass caught on its side, sort of sticking out like a stove pipe sticking out the top of a roof on a house. So I don't think it is magazine related, rather the extractor and whatever throws the spent casing out and away from the gun failed to work right and the bolt caught the used brass in mid-air.

In other words, it was not a failure to feed, rather a failure to eject away from the pistol. I know the extractor pulls the round out of the chamber, I don't really know what then throws the round off to the side.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:13 am

Now I see that maybe the magazine lip maybe does play a role in ejection?

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:49 am

You are talking about a failure to eject the spent round. Looks something like this -

The extractor is releasing the spent case too soon. This could be caused by the extractor not holding the case tightly until it strikes the ejector. Or the magazine lip is too high and knocking the case off of the extractor before it gets back to the ejector. Look at this thread for more info about magazine positioning http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18

If it is your extractor then get a VQ Exact Edge extractor and you won't have any more problems with it.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:07 am

1. Your picture is exactly what happens.

2. With regards to discerning whether it is a high magazine lip or the extractor, would the frequency of the problem suggest either one more likely than another? Also, I believe I had about 1500 rounds through the pistol before this started to appear, although maybe 1 could have happened before now.

3. Also I am not 100% sure, but it seems like the rim on some of my spent cartridges is not uniformly equidistant from the pipe, i.e. the extractor would have more or less edge to bite on if my observations are correct. I also see some "grime" on some rims, which is either from my dirty breech face or the round's own powder, which maybe is part of the problem too.

4. I will also check the magazine and the magazine release button inside the handle for grime, maybe just a little grime causes the mag to sit high?

5. I am having a hard time watching a slow pullback of the bolt with empty brass, but I'm fairly sure its not hitting the magazine lip, but not certain. Maybe I'll try to catch it on video so I can slow it down. Or maybe put some oil or ink on the magazine lip and see if it transfers at all to a casing during a fast ejection.

6. The VQ extractor seems pretty cheap, and people seem to rave about it, so I may as well try it. Easy enough DIY job?

7. Lastly, assuming my clearance is normally ok, what about taking off 1/32 or 1/64 of the bump? Can I get away with that for extra clearance "insurance" and not run into feeding problems?

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:09 am

If you have the 1/16th inch gap between the ejector pin and the magazine, then your magazine lips are not too high. If you can go 1,500 rounds after detailed cleaning before this happens then your extractor plunger may be getting fouled causing the tension to drop, resulting in a release of the cartridge case prematurely.

Grime and narrow case rims are normal for spent cases. An extractor doesn't pull the case from the chamber, it is forced out by back pressure. The extractor pinches the case against the opposite side of the bolt and holds it secure until the case rim strikes the ejector pin and is expelled from the receiver. If an empty case seems loose when in the grasp of the extractor claw then then a new extractor may be in order.

R,
Bullseye

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:26 am

I have suspicion it is the plunger getting grimed up. About 300 rounds ago I used a qtip to remove some grime deposits that had built up on the outside of the bolt (the portion of the bolt visible through the ejection "window" when the bolt is closed). I didn't think it was a problem but just didn't look nice when the bolt was closed. Given that the extractor plunger is following the same path as the outside of the bolt, I'm guess grim is getting in there.

What is the best way to clean that area? I was thinking to spray in some gun scrubber solvent (after removing the bolt), followed by remoil and then wipe down with a dry cloth to remove excess oil.

Also does the VQ extractor spring give better tension over the stock spring? i.e. less sensitive to buildup around the assembly?

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:29 am

Sorry one more observation. Also that loaded chamber indicator tends to accumulate grime. Is there any chance its been known to cause problems with ejection?

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:06 pm

There have been accounts of the LCI causing ejection problems. I haven't encountered any but if a case is loose then the LCI could also knock the case off the hook. You could remove the LCI and test fire the pistol to see if it is causing the ejection problems. Here's a link to a thread on how to remove the LCI http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=398

Spraying in some gun scrubber should do the trick. Oil sparingly or more grit will accumulate in the liquid residue.

The extractor plunger spring that VQ supplies with their extractor is for the 10/22 only. You reuse the original spring from the bolt when replacing the extractor with one from VQ. A 10/22 spring has far too much tension for the 22 pistols.

R,
Bullseye

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:30 pm

Thanks. I will start with a good cleaning and see what happens.

This has all taught me the importance of making some notes about round use, failures, cleanings, etc, because it is very hard to remember what happened when after the fact.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:41 pm

Hmm.. Well now that I'm home I think the problem may be the magazine height. But I'm not sure I'm testing it right. Basically you are saying there should be a 1/16" gap between the rear magazine lip and the ejector.

I couldn't quite figure out how to measure, but then I put both a penny and dime on the measuring tape and see that both are less than 1/16" thick. Which means that if I place one on top of the magazine and try to slide it backwards under the ejector, it should do so and miss the ejector, yes? Neither fits, not even close. I then tried a guitar pick that is slightly less than 1/16" thick (clearly fits between both lines on my ruler) from all sorts of angles and can't fit it in, the ejector just digs into the plastic. Both mags, same results.

Just to be sure, I'm assuming there is no difference between the standard mkiii and the 22/45 on this 1/16". I do not have any way I can think of to measure exactly what the clearance is, that I can think of...

Am I measuring properly?

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:09 pm

The gap doesn't have to be exactly 1/16th of an inch, it can be a little more or even a little less. The important thing is that there is a gap between the ejector and the top edge of the magazine feed lip. Like in the picture from the thread I posted.

Some folks have rounded the front edge of the rear feed lips to reduce the chance of the magazines knocking off the spent case. Like this image from Yzguy's website http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/stovepipe.htm

If you want to post a picture here of the inside of your receiver with a magazine installed (like the one I posted above) I'll take a look and see if there's anything obvious causing the problem.

R,
Bullseye

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:32 pm

My picture looks like yours...when my wife gets home I'll borrow her camera. I wrote more info below while you were posting, and I think the clearance is ok. Nonetheless, rounding down that lip seems like a good idea, because even if the extractor works fine it could prevent the 1/2000 time it slips a little... Although I don't entirely see why a round shouldn't eject ok right off of that rear lip...maybe ruger should just make the ejector be an extension off the top of the mag and solve the problem altogether that way. (I put the alibi behind me during the match, but as you can tell I'm a little consumed now with avoiding it again.)

Here is what I observed about the extractor grip:

I found a way to grip the pistol better so I could slowly pull back the slide and see what happens.

1. Most of the time the extractor has a nice grip on the casing and when it does so, it seems to me that the casing easily clears the rear lips, despite my observations about the measurements before. It may be closer than spec, but it still seems like enough.
The grip on the casing is such that I can still knock it out of alignment by giving it a press with the finger, but a light touch won't affect it. I can slide the casing right back into the barrel the grip is that good.

2. Sometimes though, as I pull the bolt back the casing will immediately nose downwards. This is the same casing that previously the extractor had a good grip on. This casing would still "eject" when I pulled back on the bolt hard, but once the nose is down obviously it is going to touch the top of the magazine and maybe a next round if the mag weren't empty. In this case even if my mag were dropped down slightly, I still think the nose of the casing would scrape along the top of it. The extractor still has a hold on the casing, but somehow not tight enough that the casing looses its "erection"

such that it could be slid right back in the barrel by releasing the bolt.

Is this normal, or should I be suspicious of the extractor and its plunger assembly? Also, I had a weird CCI casing that the extractor simply couldn't grab if I pulled slowly. I pulled hard and it ejected, but now I can't find it on the floor to inspect it more carefully. The other spent casings are all federal economy from walmart.

3. Also, it takes what I would consider a firmer pull on the bolt than what I would think to get a casing to "pop" away. I should also mention my casings are ejecting forward, at say 2'oclock. If I pull the bolt back slower, the casing is simply pushed off the ejector with no apparent rise at all and comes to rest on top of the mag. I guess this is normal, sort of, can't exactly explain but doesn't seem right. I guess I would think the ejector would still direct the round away, which makes me think my ejector is not angled right, but maybe I'm crazy. It does make me think that possibly weak rounds are the culprit by not cycling the bolt hard enough, possibly combined with a bad extractor grip to create a "perfect storm" for a stove pipe.

It goes without saying, but thanks for all your help with this.

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:55 pm

It's not unusual for the case to not extract from the chamber well when trying to manually extract a case. Under recoil the case is forced rearwards along with the bolt, the extractor claw grabs on after the case is driven rearwards. Very rarely is a case left behind stuck in the chamber. Often if it is the case was pushed back into the chamber by the bolt when it closed again. Your casing should not be capable of angling downwards if held securely against the bolt face by the extractor claw. An extractor plunger cleaning or even extractor replacement sounds like a more realistic remedy for your situation.

R,
Bullseye