An interesting article about the accuracy of small autos by Massad Ayoob, in The Daily Caller.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/07/massa ... -snubbies/
In the article it is pointed out that modern small autos can outperform their full-sized counterparts.
Accuracy of Small Autos
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charlesb
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Accuracy of Small Autos
Last edited by charlesb on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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blue68f100
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I think it's true in most cases. Most sub compacts use bull barrels which lock the slide and barrel together. Then there's improved mfg these days with things held to a tighter tolerance, better crowns. The captive recoil springs used in these gun equal the length of a full size gun so in turn it has more spring to tame the recoil. I know my Kimber UCII 45acp tested 1.25" groups at 25yrds with the right ammo. It has a bull barrel vs a std bushing which normally has some slop. Then some guns like the Sigs have always been accurate no matter what the barrel length due to it's slide to barrel lockup design.
David
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
I have two 'pocket sized' handguns. The first is a Ruger LCR revolver which I
shoot quite well at 50' (6" group). I also have a Kahr PM9 that I shoot equally
well. I am amazed at the accuracy of my little guys. I have always thought a
longer barrel was much more accurate, but I not sure how much anymore. The
drawbacks with the small shooters is the size of caliber and # of rds, but I think
9mm & 38sp+ hollow points can clearly do the job. I like the small semi's for
their capabilities, and I don't like lugging around a big piece of iron.
Haka
shoot quite well at 50' (6" group). I also have a Kahr PM9 that I shoot equally
well. I am amazed at the accuracy of my little guys. I have always thought a
longer barrel was much more accurate, but I not sure how much anymore. The
drawbacks with the small shooters is the size of caliber and # of rds, but I think
9mm & 38sp+ hollow points can clearly do the job. I like the small semi's for
their capabilities, and I don't like lugging around a big piece of iron.
Haka
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charlesb
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Today I had to drive 120+ miles to Odessa Texas to get electronic fingerprinting done, the last step required to apply for my CC ticket.
To celebrate, I ordered a Glock C29, a compact 10mm carry gun that I can fool around with, while I wait 2-3 months for the CC license to show up. It looks like it would be a handful, I look forward to picking it up late next week, and checking it out.
The guy at the gunshop had the full-sized Glock 10mm, but it didn't look very concealable to me. Hope the stubby model is accurate, I have always enjoyed 10mm pistols in the past, most have worked just fine for me.
My favorite was the Colt Double Eagle, I liked it much better than the S&W, the IAI longslide govt. model, and one other by a fly-by-night outfit that I can't remember the name of, right now.
The only one that I had trouble with was the IAI, which was wonderfully accurate but had feeding problems out the wazoo, one thing after another.
This will be my first Glock, I have shied away from them until now, but nobody else makes a compact 10mm that I know of.
If I don't hit them, maybe the muzzle blast will distract them enough for me to get off a second shot, eh?
To celebrate, I ordered a Glock C29, a compact 10mm carry gun that I can fool around with, while I wait 2-3 months for the CC license to show up. It looks like it would be a handful, I look forward to picking it up late next week, and checking it out.
The guy at the gunshop had the full-sized Glock 10mm, but it didn't look very concealable to me. Hope the stubby model is accurate, I have always enjoyed 10mm pistols in the past, most have worked just fine for me.
My favorite was the Colt Double Eagle, I liked it much better than the S&W, the IAI longslide govt. model, and one other by a fly-by-night outfit that I can't remember the name of, right now.
The only one that I had trouble with was the IAI, which was wonderfully accurate but had feeding problems out the wazoo, one thing after another.
This will be my first Glock, I have shied away from them until now, but nobody else makes a compact 10mm that I know of.
If I don't hit them, maybe the muzzle blast will distract them enough for me to get off a second shot, eh?
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charlesb
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I've been looking at pictures of the C29 on the web since yesterday, and it looks concealable enough. The slide is the same width as the regular model so I'll have to watch out about that. Here in Texas, you can't allow anyone to see any part of the gun, or an outline of it etc..
They've got a bill in the Texas legislature that will cut you some slack if somebody sees your concealed weapon while you are reaching for your wallet etc. but I haven't heard about whether it went through or not.
It's now OK to keep a handgun in your car here, with no CC ticket required as long as it's concealed and nobody can tell its there by peeking in your windows. It used to be only OK if you were traveling over county lines, but they dropped that limitation. You are also OK now, carrying the pistol to and from your car.
I have a feeling that this will be another gun that my family members will not want to shoot because of the recoil. I'll be using full-boat 10mm rounds, on the theory that if I wanted something a little less powerful and more controllable than that, then I would have been much better off to have chosen a 40 S&W or maybe a .45 ACP model.
I hope that I never have to shoot anyone with my CC gun but if I do, I will want them DRT, right away.
One use that I have in mind for the new pistol will be for when I go hunting, and must approach an animal that I have shot with my rifle. A friend of mine had a "dead" deer suddenly jump up and attack him when he got up close, and he says that his Browning Hi-Power was what saved the day.
I don't know a thing about the Glocks, the controls or how to handle them properly. It will be fun to learn a new type of gun.
If it turns out to be accurate, that will be good enough for me to be delighted with it. I still fantasize about a light, easy to carry handgun which would work well on deer and pigs at close range, thus my interest in 10mm. Maybe this will fill the bill.
They've got a bill in the Texas legislature that will cut you some slack if somebody sees your concealed weapon while you are reaching for your wallet etc. but I haven't heard about whether it went through or not.
It's now OK to keep a handgun in your car here, with no CC ticket required as long as it's concealed and nobody can tell its there by peeking in your windows. It used to be only OK if you were traveling over county lines, but they dropped that limitation. You are also OK now, carrying the pistol to and from your car.
I have a feeling that this will be another gun that my family members will not want to shoot because of the recoil. I'll be using full-boat 10mm rounds, on the theory that if I wanted something a little less powerful and more controllable than that, then I would have been much better off to have chosen a 40 S&W or maybe a .45 ACP model.
I hope that I never have to shoot anyone with my CC gun but if I do, I will want them DRT, right away.
One use that I have in mind for the new pistol will be for when I go hunting, and must approach an animal that I have shot with my rifle. A friend of mine had a "dead" deer suddenly jump up and attack him when he got up close, and he says that his Browning Hi-Power was what saved the day.
I don't know a thing about the Glocks, the controls or how to handle them properly. It will be fun to learn a new type of gun.
If it turns out to be accurate, that will be good enough for me to be delighted with it. I still fantasize about a light, easy to carry handgun which would work well on deer and pigs at close range, thus my interest in 10mm. Maybe this will fill the bill.
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charlesb
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The Glock C29 that I ordered last week came in today, and I took it to the range for a brief, informal test-fire at 25 yards.
I was hitting the target with it, but it was shooting to the right and I did not bring any tools with me, so I only fired ten rounds and let it go at that, until I could come back with my tools.
I thought the trigger was OK but nothing to write home about. It compares favorably to military two-stage rifle triggers. Dry-firing the Glock, there is an obvious "shake" or jar that occurs though, when the striker lets go that cannot be conducive to accuracy.
Another thing that caused me to quit early was the difficulty I was having in finding my spent brass. The sun is very strong here in the mountains, so our shooting positions are covered. The Glock was launching the brass high and to the right, and after bouncing off of the underside of the corrugated iron sun-shade, the brass went in random directions. - It all wound up in an area twenty feet by ten, just randomly here and there. My wife gave me a hand and we eventually found all but one.
With the factory ammo being a dollar a pop, reloading is important to me, so I hope to find some way to moderate the ejection of spent shells.
The gun was heavy for its size, which made it quite manageable with the hot 10mm loads - but will also limit my CC options with the gun, especially in warm weather. I did not try firing the C29 one-handed, but I am confident that it would work out OK if I did.
At home, I took the slide off and found that almost all of the gun's weight is in the slide. - The recoil spring was little-bitty and I can see how that is possible with the boat-anchor slide. The comments one hears about Glock engineering seem humorous now that I've seen what the engineering consists of.
I thought that the top-heavy feel would be a problem but it's not that noticeable when firing the gun.
There are thumb rests but for my hand at least, they are anatomically impossible to use while firing the gun. The underside of the trigger-guard, where it goes into the frame has an irritatingly sharp radius that digs into my second finger, just past the knuckle.
The finger grooves and backstrap seem just right. At first I had difficulty with the takedown system, but with some practice it is working better for me.
The sights are just like I like.
- Overall, the worst problem that I have encountered is the sharp radius on the underside of the trigger-guard, where it goes into the frame. The gun's best feature at first trial is the size and shape of the grip.
I was most worried about the trigger - until I used it a bit. I can see how I could get used to it, with practice. For a CC gun, it is close to ideal.
I'd like to find a good shoulder rig for it. I bought a left-handed inside-the pants holster with a belt clip for it, that I can put at the small of my back.
It will take 60-90 days for my CC ticket to come back. In the mean-time, the Glock C-29 will be the new car-gun.
I've looked at the aftermarket do-dads for it, and don't see anything that I can't live without. I might modify the bottom of the trigger guard for more comfort, and will definitely tone down the ejection system though, if at all possible.
I was hitting the target with it, but it was shooting to the right and I did not bring any tools with me, so I only fired ten rounds and let it go at that, until I could come back with my tools.
I thought the trigger was OK but nothing to write home about. It compares favorably to military two-stage rifle triggers. Dry-firing the Glock, there is an obvious "shake" or jar that occurs though, when the striker lets go that cannot be conducive to accuracy.
Another thing that caused me to quit early was the difficulty I was having in finding my spent brass. The sun is very strong here in the mountains, so our shooting positions are covered. The Glock was launching the brass high and to the right, and after bouncing off of the underside of the corrugated iron sun-shade, the brass went in random directions. - It all wound up in an area twenty feet by ten, just randomly here and there. My wife gave me a hand and we eventually found all but one.
With the factory ammo being a dollar a pop, reloading is important to me, so I hope to find some way to moderate the ejection of spent shells.
The gun was heavy for its size, which made it quite manageable with the hot 10mm loads - but will also limit my CC options with the gun, especially in warm weather. I did not try firing the C29 one-handed, but I am confident that it would work out OK if I did.
At home, I took the slide off and found that almost all of the gun's weight is in the slide. - The recoil spring was little-bitty and I can see how that is possible with the boat-anchor slide. The comments one hears about Glock engineering seem humorous now that I've seen what the engineering consists of.
I thought that the top-heavy feel would be a problem but it's not that noticeable when firing the gun.
There are thumb rests but for my hand at least, they are anatomically impossible to use while firing the gun. The underside of the trigger-guard, where it goes into the frame has an irritatingly sharp radius that digs into my second finger, just past the knuckle.
The finger grooves and backstrap seem just right. At first I had difficulty with the takedown system, but with some practice it is working better for me.
The sights are just like I like.
- Overall, the worst problem that I have encountered is the sharp radius on the underside of the trigger-guard, where it goes into the frame. The gun's best feature at first trial is the size and shape of the grip.
I was most worried about the trigger - until I used it a bit. I can see how I could get used to it, with practice. For a CC gun, it is close to ideal.
I'd like to find a good shoulder rig for it. I bought a left-handed inside-the pants holster with a belt clip for it, that I can put at the small of my back.
It will take 60-90 days for my CC ticket to come back. In the mean-time, the Glock C-29 will be the new car-gun.
I've looked at the aftermarket do-dads for it, and don't see anything that I can't live without. I might modify the bottom of the trigger guard for more comfort, and will definitely tone down the ejection system though, if at all possible.
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charlesb
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- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
- Location: Mountains of West Texas
I haven't seen any molding flash, the plastic work appears to be top quality throughout.
My problem stems from having large, sausage-like fingers with big knuckles. The first finger groove below the trigger guard is made for normal, not neanderthal hands, and that's why it's not comfortable for me.
I have a half-round file that is about the right size... The little "bump" where the trigger guard angles up toward the grip is the spot that I need to address the most.
The challenging part will be to re-texture the area that I have Bubba'd so that it looks like it's supposed to be that way. - I think my large illuminated magnifier and a small center punch will do the job, with some patience.
Looking over the available accessories again, I sent off for an extended slide release, a grip extension for one of my magazines, and a trigger bar/spring kit that alleges to reduce the trigger pull and make it less mushy. My Wheeler trigger-pull gauge says that the pull is currently around ten pounds, but it sure doesn't feel that way. I think the unusual trigger mechanism is fooling the gauge.
I'm going to hold off on buying a good carry holster until my CC ticket shows up. There are lots of holster options for the C29 and it will take me a while to read up on all that, and figure out what I really want.
At this point, I do not see what I can do to moderate the ejection system. - I may just have to wait until I have the range to myself, and step out past the the sun-shade to shoot. If I do that, they'll most likely wind up somewhere close to each other.
If they fly up and land on top of the sun-shade though, that will be awkward. I'm going to bring a spotter along, to see where they go.
My problem stems from having large, sausage-like fingers with big knuckles. The first finger groove below the trigger guard is made for normal, not neanderthal hands, and that's why it's not comfortable for me.
I have a half-round file that is about the right size... The little "bump" where the trigger guard angles up toward the grip is the spot that I need to address the most.
The challenging part will be to re-texture the area that I have Bubba'd so that it looks like it's supposed to be that way. - I think my large illuminated magnifier and a small center punch will do the job, with some patience.
Looking over the available accessories again, I sent off for an extended slide release, a grip extension for one of my magazines, and a trigger bar/spring kit that alleges to reduce the trigger pull and make it less mushy. My Wheeler trigger-pull gauge says that the pull is currently around ten pounds, but it sure doesn't feel that way. I think the unusual trigger mechanism is fooling the gauge.
I'm going to hold off on buying a good carry holster until my CC ticket shows up. There are lots of holster options for the C29 and it will take me a while to read up on all that, and figure out what I really want.
At this point, I do not see what I can do to moderate the ejection system. - I may just have to wait until I have the range to myself, and step out past the the sun-shade to shoot. If I do that, they'll most likely wind up somewhere close to each other.
If they fly up and land on top of the sun-shade though, that will be awkward. I'm going to bring a spotter along, to see where they go.
Get a 3.5 pound trigger connector (has a minus sign on it) and a competition spring kit to reduce the trigger pull to a manageable weight. If you want to have an adjustable trigger for length of pull and overtravel you may want to consider a complete one like this- http://www.glockstore.com/custom-parts- ... gger-kit-1
The extended slide release is a great choice. It is not very pronounced but makes a huge difference in the operation of the release.
R,
Bullseye
The extended slide release is a great choice. It is not very pronounced but makes a huge difference in the operation of the release.
R,
Bullseye
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charlesb
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- Location: Mountains of West Texas
Thanks for the info, Bullseye!
I installed a 3.5 lb. connecter and a spring kit, and did a "25 cent trigger job" while I was at it, polishing a few spots here and there.
The new slide release made a difference like night and day. If I didn't do anything else, I'd want to do that!
Click image to see it bigger.
I might have made the trigger a bit too light, once I got an unintended double-tap. - But maybe I was just not used to the lighter trigger.
I walked out past the sun-shade to shoot, as I had the range to myself. My tossed-brass spotter says it tosses them twelve feet behind me and to the right, 45 degrees back from my standing position.
I sure wish that I could get it to dump them closer, and not toss them so high. Once we knew where it tossed them, my spotter was able to catch them before they hit the ground, more often than not.
I installed a 3.5 lb. connecter and a spring kit, and did a "25 cent trigger job" while I was at it, polishing a few spots here and there.
The new slide release made a difference like night and day. If I didn't do anything else, I'd want to do that!
Click image to see it bigger.
I might have made the trigger a bit too light, once I got an unintended double-tap. - But maybe I was just not used to the lighter trigger.
I walked out past the sun-shade to shoot, as I had the range to myself. My tossed-brass spotter says it tosses them twelve feet behind me and to the right, 45 degrees back from my standing position.
I sure wish that I could get it to dump them closer, and not toss them so high. Once we knew where it tossed them, my spotter was able to catch them before they hit the ground, more often than not.
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greener
I've never fired a Glock that that didn't shoot reasonably well. Some fired very well. That said, I've avoided buying a Glock because they are pretty boring pistols. Now, you two are forcing me to consider buying one. I'd really appreciate it if you would stop telling me how good they are. 
I think most small guns challenge the shooter, rather being inherently inaccurate. Between weight, short sight radius and sometimes really lousy sights, the small pocket guns tend to jump all over shooter errors, so they are supposed to be inaccurate. My 442, with me shooting it no less, is capable of sub 2" groups at 15 yards. It's also capable of putting all the rounds in an 8.5x11" sheet. I suspect the error is located somewhere around my right index finger. My bride did pretty well with a 2" Colt revolver at 25 yards, but she has the best trigger technique in the family.
I think most small guns challenge the shooter, rather being inherently inaccurate. Between weight, short sight radius and sometimes really lousy sights, the small pocket guns tend to jump all over shooter errors, so they are supposed to be inaccurate. My 442, with me shooting it no less, is capable of sub 2" groups at 15 yards. It's also capable of putting all the rounds in an 8.5x11" sheet. I suspect the error is located somewhere around my right index finger. My bride did pretty well with a 2" Colt revolver at 25 yards, but she has the best trigger technique in the family.
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greener
Charlesb: is Texas really that far behind in handgun carry? I remember a friend who was moving from Michigan to Texas in the '90's and was 100% thrilled by the really great handgun laws in Texas.
Fast forward a bit. In Virginia, you can do open carry without a permit. Until recently, it was illegal to CC in places that served alcohol, but open carry was ok as long as you didn't drink. You can show up at the county commission meetings openly carrying. You can actually show up and talk to your state representative open or concealed carrying. Texas has long had a great reputation for liberal gun policies. You need to tell them that us folks from Virginia think they are restrictive.
Fast forward a bit. In Virginia, you can do open carry without a permit. Until recently, it was illegal to CC in places that served alcohol, but open carry was ok as long as you didn't drink. You can show up at the county commission meetings openly carrying. You can actually show up and talk to your state representative open or concealed carrying. Texas has long had a great reputation for liberal gun policies. You need to tell them that us folks from Virginia think they are restrictive.