1911 A1 parts questions

[Georgezilla]

Are all the recoil rods the same for this model, ie can I put a low power spring meant for target loads on a factory recoil rod made for hardball?
Are all barrel throats the same? or are some made specificly for hardball or specificly for wadcutter?

Lastly what does DCM mean?

Thanks.

[Bullseye]

George,

The factory 1911 GI recoil spring guide rods are the same for your Government Model pistol. They will accept springs of different weights, target or hardball. I switch in target weight recoil springs in all the time.



There are different throats for target (wadcutter bullets) and ball (round nose bullets). The throat is mainly the bevel at the front of the chamber, the wider the throat the more reliably it will feed ammo with different nose shapes. Here is an example of a wide target throat (from www.sightm1911.com)



A ball throat has a relatively narrow bevel on it.

Here's some different throats pictured side-by-side for comparison. (from www.coolgunsite.com)



The barrel on the right is an example of a GI barrel with a ball throat. The one in the center is a target throat. The one on the left is a new wider style Commercial ball throat.

DCM - Director of Civilian Marksmanship (the former name of the CMP)

CMP - Civilian Marksmanship Program ( http://www.odcmp.com )

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

Thanks for the information. Now that I can see the difference between throats I was wondering if ball ammo can be as accurate as wadcutter? I know the differences are shape and weight, but I know you can get ball ammo that weighs the same as most of the wadcutter target stuff (200gr, seems to be what most target shooters use). So with that being said I'm asking if you think I can use a barrel throated for hardball to accurately and reliably shoot leighter weight ball target loads. Or is there something else that makes wadcutter better for accuracy?

One last question, I notice that the .45s ones built for target loads have a 2 piece recoil rod, what is the significance of that?

[bearandoldman]

Bullseye, I know you probably either use this set up fro target ammo in the 1911 or have tried it in the past. My full size 1911is an SA as are all of my 1911's. My carry guns are either a lightering Micro with the dual captive recoil spring or the V-10 with an SA custom shop full leg th guide rod.
To make a nice soft shooting gun with semi wad cutter in the full size, I #1 load with Green Dot to soften the recoil. #2 use a 14 Pound spring and #3 use JMB's original small radius on the firing pin stop to reduce muzzle jump in the rearward movement of the slide and of course the softer spring reduces to some extent muzz;lon the forward movement of the slide.
Sure makes a nice soft shooter for target load and also works well with commercial ball amoo.

[Bullseye]

Yes you can get great accuracy from round nosed bullets. The main reason people use wadcutters, or in 1911's, semi-wadcutter bullets, is for a clearer, more distinct hole in the target. A better hole means an easier time scoring the shots. This results in less challenges at matches, because the competitor and scorer can agree more readily on the values of the shots. Round nosed bullets tend to make smaller holes that have tears radiating outward. The round nosed hole is significantly smaller than the diameter of the bullet. A wadcutter too makes a smaller hole, but it is much closer to the actual diameter of the bullet. Typically on a shot target, the true diameter edge of a wadcutter bullet can be seen as a black grease ring around the bullet hole. The larger the hole, the more likely an overlay (scoring template) is capable of assessing the value of the shot. With round nose, there's more room for error, and more disagreements on the firing line by scorer and competitor, leading to a challenge and wasted time between relays.

Military Ball is typically full metal jacketed, 230 grain round nosed bullets. It tends to be loaded hotter, with more recoil, than target grade ammo. Some of the higher power in ball ammo was for smooth functioning in SMGs. Some of the hottest Military ball ammo I've shot comes from Israeli Military Industries and is headstamped "TZZ".

The lighter bullets means one can decrease the powder load and therefore get more sight's time on target, instead of up in the air recovering from recoil. Many Bullseye shooter's like 185 grain wadcutter bullets in their loads. Lighter loads also result is less physical stress on the body and elbow(s).

There's two schools of thought on recoil rod systems. First there's the traditionalists, who believe John Moses designed the recoil system one way and there's no need to improve upon it. The GI (short) recoil rod is perfect for the 1911 because the spring is captive under the barrel and cannot go anywhere in the spring cavity. Since it has limited movement there's no need to change the design because of any perceived kinking or non-linear forces.

The second group are the progressives, who feel that there's no design that cannot be improved upon, especially one that's a hundred years old. They feel that there's enough room in the recoil spring cavity to allow for spring kinking and thus the recoil spring's energy is less efficient the old JMB way. They've designed the two-piece recoil rod to force the spring to be held captive along the rod for the full length of the slide's movement. This requires a dust cover with a hole in it for the end of the longer rod to pass through when the slide retracts. A hole in the dust cover can also allow more foreign matter to penetrate into the inner workings of the pistol, a condition that's not desirable in a combat pistol. I myself cannot perceive any distinct advantage to one recoil system over another, other than keeping dirt out of the action by the original configuration. One disadvantage to the two-piece recoil rod is that it complicates the take-down process a little bit more.

There's very strong opinions between the two groups on which system is the better. I personally do not see a reason to use the long recoil rod system in a 1911. I've experimented with both to compare and I cannot personally see, or feel, a difference between the two recoil rod systems. Plus, the long recoil rod is not permitted under the CMP rules definition of a 1911 Service Pistol for EIC matches.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

This leads me to another question... Can the 2 piece recoil system have its springs changed out like the JMB type?

Thanks.

[Bullseye]

Yes, you can change the springs on the long two piece rod recoil system.

There is one system where it becomes more difficult to change springs and that system uses dual springs. This kind of recoil system is found in shorter action 1911s and has two springs, one over the other on one guide rod. This type of recoil system needs balance between the two springs and should not be changed out like the others.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

Thank you much for answering all my questions!

[Bullseye]

You're welcome, anytime!

R,
Bullseye