New primer ignition differences in my two 22/45's

FourCornerm'n · Post by **FourCornerm'n** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:58 am

I'm a very happy camper with action work completed on my two 22/45's (Mark II's). The practice gun has more rounds through it (maybe 30,000?) and now is newly producing about 12-15 non-firing rounds a brick - only a few are going off on second strike. Federal Champion Bulk (525 pack). The 'Match' gun has about 20,000 - 22,000 rounds through it and it now is producing 1 or 2 non firing rounds a brick - and one of these fires on the second strike.

I'd replace the rebound spring and guide on the practice gun a few months ago. Both guns have VQ Exact Edge Extractors. Both guns were fully cleaned before the shooting above results.

I've noticed the practice gun's bolt face has a flaw in it. Looking at the bolt face rim, the section that would correspond to about 9:30 to 11:30 if it were a clock face, is missing metal around that whole section. This section would support a part of the 22 case rim. I'd cleaned the bolt faces of both guns carefully before this impromptu testing.

Is this chink in the circumference protruding from the bolt fact that holds the rim in place, likely to be adding to misfires like I'm getting?

Wondering, also, if 30,000 rounds or so is as much as an Exact Edge Extractor can take? Both firing pins are original. (I've managed to misplace a new VQ firing pin I just bought from them that was meant to solve this problem. When I find it, or course, it goes in the practice gun).

Where else do I look. I've never had this many misfiring rounds from Federal Bulk 525's before, and the other gun hardly has any misfires, using the same ammo.

Thanks for any ideas.

bigfatdave · Post by **bigfatdave** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:58 am

Are you sure it wasn't just a crummy box?

If you're absolutely sure the promlem is hardware based, you can swap parts and watch to see which part the malfunctions follow.

greener · Post by **greener** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:57 am

Is the flaw in the practice gun's bolt face something that just happened?

I agree with Dave. I'd switch ammo, then parts. Firing pins ought to be relatively easy/inexpensive fixes, but I'd make sure I'm not chasing and ammo problem.

I don't know how long VQ extractors work. My plan is to replace the originals with the VQ's when I start having problems. So far, I haven't had any extraction problems in any of the purchased new or purchased used Rugers i have.

Post by **Bullseye** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:25 am

I haven't seen anyone who's had to replace an unblemished VQ extractor once it's installed. They are made out of a higher carbon steel that lasts very well.

If you could post a picture of your bolt flaw that would be more helpful.

R,
Bullseye

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:00 pm

The FT Fire on bulk pack is very common. Though the last 3 boxes I have gone through has be 100% on the first try and Zero ejection problems with MKIII.

I would look at replace the Main Spring (hammer). It has enough rounds through it that it may be getting weak. I normally buy the Main Spring assemble which takes care of not having a gig to replace the spring.

Baldy · Post by **Baldy** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:29 pm

I always start with the ammo when looking for problems. If I am getting a good strike and a lot of misfires then I change ammo. If I get light or in some cases no strike then I am looking at the pistol.

FourCornerm'n · Post by **FourCornerm'n** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:27 pm

Ammo: Interesting that blue68 is finding good boxes of ammo (presumably lower cost bulk) - maybe there's hope for a turn around with this the stuff.

Both bricks of Fed Champion 525 are from the same lot. Bought bunches of it over 3 years ago at a Cabela's sale.

I should be able to swap part fairly easily and monitor the results. Y did i nt tink of dat?

Not sure when the chinks came out of the bolt face rim. It's in a section adjacent to the extractor, which sort of hides that part of the rim. Didn't take the time to look at it until recently.

Glad to know originally good to go VQ extractors are unlikely to fail. This one has always worked well, as has the one in the other gun.

This is the gun with a newly replaced mainspring assembly (that resulted from a broken bolt stop pin) and it's been in the gun for a few months before this FTFire began. But it may be something to include in the inventory of changing out parts, anyway. Thanks

I wish I could more easily post pictures. It's always been a problem and has mattered mostly here on this site. When I can, I certainly will. I owe posts on this site a couple of problem solving pictures now.

Thanks to everyone. My shooting opportunities are less than a few weeks ago, but I'll begin leapfrogging some parts to try to isolate the problem. 12-15 (or a few more) FTFire per brick is just too many.

bigfatdave · Post by **bigfatdave** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:56 pm

15 per 525 is getting to be a bit much, but for cheap ammo I'd get over it.
Now, if my guns did that with CCI minimags or other high quality non-bulk ammo, I might get annoyed ... but fed525/fed550/win555 I'll take what I get, who knows if one box got a bit more moisture exposure, or got vibrated a bit more in transit/storage?

And if you'd posted that failure rate with anything Remington Rimfire, I'd wonder why you were surprised.

FourCornerm'n · Post by **FourCornerm'n** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:49 am

Agree completely, Dave, about the Remington bulk junk. Been avoiding them for a long time now. CCI Blazers have recently gone through both guns without a hitch. They're now $19.86 for 500 near here. In June I spent about $400 on ten bricks of these Blazers, but am keeping them back until I'm rid of the Fed 525s. I should try Blazers in the weakening practice gun to see how they work in it now.

Post by **Bullseye** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:30 am

How is the profile of the firing pin dent? Is it different (wider or narrower) than that of the other gun?

R,
Bullseye

FourCornerm'n · Post by **FourCornerm'n** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:54 pm

Easy logic illusive after first range tests. Gonna take some time, I guess. Weird methinks.

Switched complete bolt and mainspring housings straight across to see what effects this might have. Certainly expected something to pop up.

First the 'Match' gun's bolt and mainspring housing into the 'practice gun' that has had the problems. Fired 240 rounds with a single FTF. Hit it again, didn't go. Hit it a third time and IT Did fire. That's rare, but it happened. Only this one FTFire in 240 rounds. Beginning to think I'm on to something with this 'good' bolt (maybe) in the formerly 'bad' (practice) gun (maybe).

Switched it around, putting the practice gun's bolt and mainspring housing into the 'good' Match gun. Having FTFire's now will indict the practice gun's bolt, or some part of it. as the culprit. 240 rounds and not a single FTFire.

Holy smokes, Gertrude, I thought this was going to be easy.

I honestly believe I need to test some more combinations before we start speculating. It seems possible that some few smaller flaws may exist in the practice gun as it was set up, and I'll try to isolate these, one by one. Otherwise aren't we just whistling into the wind?

The indents on the cases are very different. I collected 5 empties from each gun before I made the first switch. The Match gun empties are indented flatly, very evenly and squarely. The Practice gun empties are all identical to one another but show signs of weakness. Photos would really help, I know, but I'm not yet set up to provide them. They would be a help here.

The Practice gun empties are indented in a cupped way, from the rim down into a hollow and back up at the edge leading toward, or closest to, the center of the case (or the F, in these Federal cases). Also the side edges of the indent are not perpendicular to the edge of the case, but slightly cock-eyed with every case. And these same edges are not clean, but seem to have swooshed some metal up atop the case just outside the indent marking, instead of leaving a cleaner, almost 90 degree angle between the edge and the undented part of the case.

I fired these rounds before exchanging bolts and MSH's.

Most of you save your time for more solveable problems. I'm going back to the experimental drawing board, hoping to test one thing or another in several, not just one, trips to the range.

BTW, I used Fed ammo from the same case I've been getting FTFire from.

If I was less curious, an obvious move would be to leave the bolts and MSH's in the opposite guns. I'd worry that somehow one gun or the other might not wear as long because of the change. ??

Post by **Bullseye** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:18 pm

The firing pin could be the culprit. It may need some TLC. Check to see that the end is squared with the body of the pin. It sounds from your description like it is not perpendicular. You can taper the head of the firing pin to concentrate the impact a little more but don't make it a knife point. Look at the good bolt's firing pin and you'll see a more tapered end.

R,
Bullseye

bigfatdave · Post by **bigfatdave** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:52 am

In a way, you're lucky to have a second unit to compare to.

I know that when I'm in doubt, having a functioning identical model to peek at is a HUGE help.

greener · Post by **greener** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:30 am

Brownell's has blued firing pins for $4.99 and stainless for $19.99

Post by **Bullseye** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:16 am

Another thing to check is the firing pin channel. Take the pin out and inspect the rebound spring and the spring guide. If the spring is broken you can get similar results. Those little springs do tend to break so it's worth checking it out.

R,
Bullseye