Can someone help guide me to DIY Action Work on a 22/45?

[ruger22]

Somehow this all makes me feel better that I am satisfied with total factory parts and performance. I do have a VQ Mark 2 hammer bushing in my Mark 3, to eliminate the mag safety, but VQ's is a virtual copy of Ruger's bushing. I have a little take-up, a crisp surprise let-off at about 2.5 pounds, and a tiny bit of over travel. Not match quality, but okay for my needs.

[FourCornerm'n]

I'm in Colorado with limited means to do any correction here now. I'll likely shoot the match because I need the experience. Fired some practice runs yesterday immediately after a 300 mile drive over the Rockies. Needless to say, my Alzheimer's and Parkinson's were in full bloom. And the gun was its antagonistic self, to boot.

I'm unable to get into the gun easily and do any corrections as blue68 suggest. Wanted to mention my early response to Bullseye's test idea of looking at the hammer sear engagement with the top off.

My earlier response:

"If I slowly go through the area of the expected glitch (but not through to trigger release), the glitch is there again - and it coincides exactly with the sear moving slightly away from the line inscribed atop the sear where the hammer rested. (The stage before final release) - the first when it jumps off the inscribed line and then acts as though it meets a hump and stops, and then with greater pressure goes on to a fairly clean release.

I can watch this happen looking down on the sear. The first separation between the sear and hammer(an uncontrollable falling off from the etched line) moves the hammer hook about half way off the line toward the breaking edge, where it sticks and requires more force for hammer release. Every time at this midway point, I can move the hammer back a bare smidgen with about an ounce and a half of pressure and see the sear-hammer return (jump) back to its position at the line on the sear.

There's a responsiveness here that seems to indicate SOMETHING?

So, it would help to know what overclocking means (and how it's corrected - though it sounds terminal for this match ($75 bucks to practice!).

And the original Ruger sear that I used for awhile has a similar etched mark on its top (or is that what you call the face?). Though this original sear and hammer combo did not include a glitch, just about an 8 lb trigger pull. Also, the curved part of the original sear has broad scraped areas from the edge down a good distance. I'm wondering if a new hammer and VQ sear (after I send two back to them) might eliminate this glitch? We don't know, but if light polishing isn't going to work, replacements parts seem a possibility? Well, I dunno.

[blue68f100]

Sounds like the angle of engagement is larger than normal. Normally Ruger uses a 4∘angle of engagement. Can you see the hammer move down before the release? If it's moving back/down you may want replace the hammer with a VQ hammer. Another option which can be VERY VERY HIGH RISK of FULL Auto if you go to far, is to take your stone to the hammer. 3-4 storks to knock off the sharp edge, keep flat as possiable so you will not go NEG angle. This will flatten the angle just a bit. Installation of the Clark MKII Bushing may restrict/limit engagement into the hammer.

[Bullseye]

In an overclocking situation the hammer actually rotates over a few degrees beyond the release point. That is a condition where the hammer hook is usually cut less than 90° for a positive engagement angle with the sear. When the trigger is pulled the hammer must rotate rearward a few degrees to release the hammer hook off the sear face. Having a slightly positive hook engagement is a good thing in a field/carry gun but a neutral engagement is most desired in a target quality gun. This takes a lot of skill to achieve and cannot be hand cut or even cut right with some of the simpler DIY hammer/sear jigs.

R,
Bullseye

[FourCornerm'n]

Well, the die is cast and I have another level of knowledge needed to get this gun back into service as soon as I can.

I shot a "Regional Match" today and it was a satisfying experience. One that moved me forward. 6th match of any kind in 19 years. Limited goals, but important ones. Didn't lose my composure which many do in speed plate matches, and that was my hoped for goal, along with avoiding an embarrassing score. Save for 3 runs out of 39, would've scored very respectably given practice time and woes. I'd decided about 15 times in the last month, NOT to shoot the match considering its difficult logistics. But then I decided 16 times TO ShOOt it, and I'm glad I did.

The clean gun didn't exhibit much of its two stage trigger and I pulled through on each shot - not feeling bad at all. I broke shots too early about 3-4 times because of this lightness. On the next to last run in the next to last stage, the gun finally went auto. It jammed after a few rounds and they let me continue. It didn't go auto again, but it only takes once to know this hammer and sear are history.

After all the thought that everyone's put in here, it's a major disappointment that there's no certain cause of the double staging phenomenon that went on for so long, or any solution except a little deeper parts replacement that now is mandatory.

Now I seem bound to be getting new parts, and despite the disappointment that we didn't end in secure knowledge about the flaw, I'm looking forward to my gun functioning the way it was intended.

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Both VQ and Clark offer hammers for this gun. Is there a difference in their quality or function. I've read that VQ hammers can tend to give light strikes. Is that true of Clark's, as well. I have the Clark bushing in there now. Is there a preference?

The VQ replacement sear I just received binds the whole trigger mechanism up at times and it's been mentioned that it's "too high". It measured only a couple of thousandths higher, over all, than the first one, but the measurement from the top of the pin hole to the top of the sear, of this last sear, results in the sear being about 7 thousandths higher in the gun, than the first one.

At this stage, very unfortunately, I'm figuring that I'm not going to be much of a gunsmith. I think I have some of what it takes, given the right equipment and knowledge. But, at this point, I just want to get back to trying to perfect my shooting while, at my age, I'm still able to contemplate this.

Any thoughts on what's simplest and best for this old shooter's 22/45 plate gun?

Thanks, ahead of time.

FourCornerm'n

[blue68f100]

Sorry to hear you had some doubles but that the risk you take when you start messing with the hammer/sear. Like Bullseye has said the only correct way is with a jig and I agree with him. It is just too easy to mess up the angle.

VQ has offered and fixed many guns free due to there out of spec Sears. If they made the offer let them install a new hammer to go with it. I do think that the even though the VQ Hammer has know to cause light strikes I would not put that against it. I could have been caused by several other conditions that were not caught when installed. I have not heard any thing about the Clark, but all of there stuff is top notch too. Most of there parts require fitting, which gives you a better fit in the end.

[greener]

If the pistol went full auto, I wouldn't fire it again until I had replaced the sear and hammer, both from safety and legal standpoints.


Are you working with the standard Ruger trigger? If you are, then an adjustable trigger may fix some of the feel problems you are encountering. My suggestion: VQ trigger, new VQ sear and VQ hammer if you can't find a good MKII hammer. You might like the Clark trigger better.

I have a VQ hammer in my MKIII Hunter. I've had no light strikes and get very few failures to fire. I don't get any more FTF's with the Hunter than I do with the other Rugers.

I've done a VQ trigger/sear upgrade on 4 Rugers (MKIII 22/45, MKII 22/45, MKII GC and 1973 Standard) and a VQ trigger/sear/hammer upgrade on the MKIII Hunter. I've also seen the trigger/sear upgrade in bgreenea3's MKII. An expert may see or feel some creep but all of them seem to have crisp, consistent triggers. I haven't seen much play in any of them. The only real difference I've seen is the old standard has the lightest trigger, which I believe may be related to shooting wear on the hammer.

[Bullseye]

It is my understanding from your earlier posts that you didn't touch the hammer hook just the sear. Is this correct?

R,
Bullseye

[FourCornerm'n]

I had just one double or "run" of more than one cartridge before the gun thankfully jammed. Hadn't happened before, or to me, ever before. Didn't really expect it. And this is one of the lessons - that the action was varying between a roll into the usual break area, and then release - or the double stage affect with a stiffening final trigger pull weight. It was mostly rolling yesterday and fairly usable and controllable. After the brief surprise auto mode the gun went into, I asked the R.O. running me whether I'd be allowed to continue and she said yes. Finished the last string in that course without mishap. Then, between stages, I asked a gunsmith in our group from a well known national shop with 50+ years experience, if I should shoot the next stage and was given the advice to go ahead, since it hadn't happened before. He was watching and thought I might have caused it by my trigger manipulation. I knew that I could control any situation that would have existed if it happened again and this was part of the reason for being allowed to go ahead - though I agree with everyone reading this that, as policy, this is not to be recommended in any form. ON EDIT: The match design meant that the gun was loaded by me and never placed in a holster and I remained in a shooter's box without moving in the box or out of it to another box. Of course, the gun was always pointed "up and down-range" loaded or not.

This was a field decision made with honesty and expectation of no additional increase in safety issues. These people had watched the way that I shoot and the manner of my concern for range safety, the clarity of my movements and attention to right range protocol by insisting that all our actions are done with attention to detail. I did leave it to others who knew the full situation. The gun didn't fail again during the remaining 35 rounds left in the match. If it had, that would've wrapped it up, of course. I'm not going to shoot the gun again, however, until this situation is completely resolved - with new parts.

Since I have the original Ruger sear with me, I've thought of replacing it and shooting on Wednesday in a local match. But, it occurs to me that it might as easily be the hammer that's now the problem and it could happen again.

I was using the original Ruger trigger and hammer, Clark hammer bushing, and the original VQ sear that's long had the double stage pull. I'm going to replace the offending parts, without a doubt. The hammer and sear. I hope that VQ will help me do this. I'm a little concerned about the VQ hammer not striking well, but would like them to install both a good sear and hammer. I ask about the Clark hammer because they have my match gun now and it will come back with a Clark Hammer Bushing and Clark Trigger. They'll find and work a sear for this match gun out of their stock, I understand. I understand that VQ is every bit as competent when their parts are within specs. I just hope they'll help with this gun, itself. I don't want to have much more to do with fixing something like this for quite a while - and then, not under pressure.

My posts of 5/21 at 1:12 a.m., and 5/25 at 1:33 a.m., indicated the work I did with the stone on the hammer. It was minimal, to take out a ridge on its edge. This took 3-4 unpressured strokes and a little of the ridge remained. Where the ridge came from, I don't know (thinking long wear in a flawed system might be involved). Later, I brushed the face of the hammer slot where it contacted the top of the sear and found little to do there, so only touched it twice. Both times I stayed away from the edge (not finishing the ridge off, for instance). I worked the sear much more aggressively towards the end of these efforts

It would be interesting to know whether the double auto shots would come back into play, but I need the gun for practice and won't be in a position to test it privately in the safety of my desert area dojo for another week. I need to get the gun stable asap. I really don't want that experience again in any other venue.


the experiment is over with me at the helm.

[Bullseye]

Replacing both parts under those circumstances would be the right thing to do.

R,
Bullseye