Can someone help guide me to DIY Action Work on a 22/45?

[FourCornerm'n]

I sure have to thank them for their head's up and for being responsible folks.

Among other things on this gun today I installed the new VQ Sear with a new Clark Sear Pin and oversize Hammer Bushing.

The Clark oversize bushing calipered out at .220 of an inch, the original Ruger (after 2 years and many rounds), 4 thousandths less (.216). The Clark sear pin measured one thousandth more than the used Ruger original. The internal diameters of the VQ sear and the used original Ruger were about 3 or 4 10,000ths of in inch apart - essentially the same.

The guns' got some goop on it that needs to cure, so I won't be manipulating the action like I'd like to be doing right now. About a dozen dry fires showed the improvement to be fairly dramatic. 'Light and Clean' would be a good description, not crisp, however. It sort of rolls through a short let off with little over travel. It may be just what'll be most useful to my practice. Or I may want to try to give it a little crisper let off later. I wonder if having the original Ruger hammer there, after it'd mated with a sharp edged flawed sear for a couple of active shooting years, might've taken the edge off some parts of the hammer. But, it still may be perfect for it's intended purpose.

I couldn't get the mainspring to close because it wanted to drop down when I moved it into the grip. The trigger was right up against the rubber eraser I use as a trigger stop, so I removed the eraser and the mainspring closed properly. It almost seems now like I might not need another eraser to fill in as a trigger stop.

I won't know how well I like these two improvements until I shoot the gun some. It's light years better than the flawed action before. My impression is that it's about 2 1/2 lbs, with a little roll, but clean - very clean overall.

The best action of any gun I own and shoot is almost magic. I was going to get rid of the caliber and the gun years ago when I took 800 rounds of 9mm to the range to burn it up. Shooting plates, I realized what I had and accepted the extra caliber. Nothing's changed on this gun, a Sig P226. The action seems ok to good when dry firing, but every time I squeeze a round off with that gun, the gun fires on "intent", my mind's command to myself to let it go. I never seem to have to move a muscle. Someone measured it once and it breaks at about 1 3/4 lbs, but it's such a clean break that it is magic.

[blue68f100]

Sounds like you have ended up with a pretty nice trigger. Removing the play out of the hammer with the Clark bushing sure makes a difference. Did you by chance measure the larger flange, where the sear contacts, (if your contact this, my does). Was the sear edge nice in clean and sharp? NOT Jagged. There have been a few that had a little roughness and needed to be cleaned up with a stone.

What your felling in the trigger very well may be the hammer. Is your trigger travel the same length or is it now shorter?

[FourCornerm'n]

The sear's business edge looks and feels (to my fingernail) very clean. All facets on the sear appear very well finished and there's quite a big improvement between this one and the one I'd kept too long in the gun without noticing its characteristics.

I'm not sure which flange you mean? On the hammer? or sear?

Trigger travel feels much shorter. I didn't expect this or I would've tried to make some subjective measurements before installing the Clark kit. The whole kit and kaboodle feels entirely new.

I may have a chance to fire the gun this afternoon. Looking to gage advantages or any disadvantages with the rolling (somewhat uncrisp) feeling in the break, for my needed practice. I don't want to buy and take a stone to this sear or hammer because I've got no training in this at all. On the other hand such skill would probably assure me of the so called 'magic' triggers I'd like, in any gun I own.

[blue68f100]

The shorter travel your experiencing is due to the Clark Bushing. The outer (largest OD) ring is the flange I was refering too. If it's like the ones I have installed the Clark Bushing into, the sear is now restricted by the bushing to limit engagement. So the larger this OD the less hammer engagement. If I recall the Clark limits the engagement to around 0.020". Next time you have the barrel off see if the sear is contacting the bushing, no hurry. Just trying to confirm on what I found out a year ago when I did mine and several buddies.

A roll effect? You way want to watch the action with the barrel off. Then you will know what part of the hammer/sear engagement is causing this. If the sear's edge is not perfectly clean you may be feeling this as it slides off. But your test shows this to be clean.

[FourCornerm'n]

I understand about the flange now and will measure the two of them when I take the gun apart, probably tomorrow.

I have to continue examining the parts and their mating because the trigger is quite a bit heavier than the 2 1/2 lbs I guesstimated yesterday and a couple of odd glitches came up near the end of shooting today.

On what was to be my second to last magazine, the trigger would not move sufficiently rearward to go off. It just got stuck and would not move rearward or forward. I pulled the bolt back and reloaded and everything worked until the last shot in the magazine. It went off all right, but the trigger lurched forward just after the shot and hit my retreating trigger finger pretty hard. Never had either of these things happen with any gun before this. I fired an extra fifty rounds to see if these repeated and they did not. At times I imagined the force needed to operate the trigger varied some. I'm not sure of this. I think I'm painting with Dykem again tomorrow - as well as examining as much as I can, in any way that I can.

[FourCornerm'n]

Caught up in other things but did measure the flanges of the two bushings. The bushing flange diameter on the original Ruger hammer bushing is about .4363, while the flange diameter of the Clark bushing is about .4385 inch.

I had the gun apart and put Dykem on the sear, dry firing about 5 times (with the original Ruger hammer bushing installed). The hammer / sear interface is tiny compared to the previous sear (with the same hammer). They look like they'd barely hold, though the pull is heavy. There was so little Dykem moved because the match was so close to the edge of the sear that I couldn't really tell much about the mating surfaces.

I de-greased both hammer and sear surfaces and the pull seems a little lighter (?). The subjective feel is as follows: When I slowly apply the least amounts of pressure to the trigger, a lot of force needs to accumulate before release. When I pull through more deliberatively as in steel shooting, it seems to go easily, as in about a 2 1/2 lb trigger, at times. I also think it may vary, but all this could be me, and not the action.

The flat part of the flange on the Clark bushing that faces the disconnector is not smooth, as is the original Ruger bushing. It's more than scratched, it's like etched in a wild pattern going every which way. Wonder if it's supposed to be smooth?

I think I'm going to be tempted to work on the hammer and/or sear at some point. Still wondering if this hammer, having been well used on a flawed sear, might have its own flaws or idiosyncrasies now. I'm very comfortable taking the gun down now, which some say is the difficulty in doing action work on Ruger Mark - guns. I would love to be able to accomplish trigger work on a gun that I regularly shoot. The main obstacle isn't the time it takes, but the money involved. Hoag told me which single stone to get when I last left L.A. and it was at his suggestion that I bought the Red Dykem. Hate to let all this Dykem go to waste.

If anyone knows where on GunTalk I might find Bullseye's, or other experts, sage advice about what's involved, I like to read it. No hurry, however. Gotta think this through first. Now have to just shoot the gun as is for awhile.

[blue68f100]

By chance did one of the pins (hammer/sear) back out causing the hard trigger?

I think I understand your say the recess are that the Disconnector rides in is not smooth? If this is the case it does not hurt to polish it. Just check it up to a drill and take some 600 grit to it. This should be smooth.

I'm out of town right know so I don't have my measurements with me to see how your compares to mine.

You should be able to put some forward pressure on the hammer to get the sear to show a contact pattern with the dykem.

[FourCornerm'n]

This gun with the newest VQ sear had a complete trigger freeze up once the first day out, and then mulitple times yesterday, Friday. I'd changed to the original hammer bushing to test the sear itself, and then today used the original flawed VQ sear with the Clark hammer bushing. No trigger freeze, at all, with the old sear and a Clark bushing. (On the last shot in every magazine (I have eight mags) the final pull was much stiffer than the other nine. Must be the hammer bushing. Not a big problem for me though).

The trigger pull has been improved considerably after introduction of the Clark hammer bushing, though it still has an early resistance, falls to a second resistance before let off. It's usable now compared to what it had been before the new bushing, but I want to take the spurs on the edge of the this older VQ sear off, using some kind of stone. I'm not at this point thinking of reshaping the sear edge beyond removal of the upraised flaws. There are two jagged protrusions on the edge of the sear that can be seen through a 10 power lupe. I want to hunt these two critters down, believing their absence will eliminate the double pump in this trigger and leave it respectable and competent for intended use.

I have to get the right stone. One overall usable stone was mentioned to me a few years ago in CA, but I can't remember which kind it was. It was sold by Brownell's, I believe. Is there one stone I can buy reasonably for a job like this?

Can I super carefully, visually monitoring every stroke, use a stone and a small vise, and expect to rid this sear of it's jagged uplifted flaws?

[Bullseye]

Take a look here: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=537218

I recommend the Norton hard Arkansas Ultra-Fine #537218 for this job. Be very careful, without a stoning jig it is too easy to mess up the engagement angle of your sear.

R,
Bullseye

[blue68f100]

If your going to attempt to do this with out a jig, use dykem or a marker to sear face. Then you can tell it your keeping it flat. The trick is not to force it or apply a lot of force. Let the sear glide and the stone does it thing. I find it best to go in 1 direction, that keeps you from rocking it back in forth on the edges. Working it length wise will also help.

The hard Ark stone Bullseye recommend will work very well. The black's are a hard very fine >1200 grit stone and will give a very good polish.

[FourCornerm'n]

I'll order the Norton Hard Arkansas Ultra-Fine stone from Midway tomorrow.

blue68 - it almost sounds like the sear is moved over an immobile stone from your description. I'd expected to put the sear in the vise and move the stone over it. Is that correct? Also, do I need any honing oil for a job like this?

Thanks for the specific and affordable recommendation, Bullseye. It's what I could have most hoped for. I'm looking forward to the challenge. Have a #5 Opitvisor and a quality lupe, so we'll see what I can see.

The rear sight is now stable thanks to Bullseye's fix. I fired 400 rounds of CCI Blazer today without any failures of any kind. (100 Federal Bulk Champion produced one failure to fire, even after 3 hits). The trigger didn't freeze up once. So, maybe if this sear gets smoothed out, I'll be able to play - and compete ! - Thanks, that is, to the most informative technical discussion group on the Web.

[blue68f100]

I use to work in a Met lab (25yrs) and polished samples all the time. I'm able to polish free hand where other were required to mount the samples before they stated. I developed this skill because the stuff they would bring me would not fit in our mounting press, and they did not want it cut up. Yes I would be holding the sear vs the stone but that just me. If you can work a file and keep a surface flat without rocking mounting the sear in a vice will work just fine. Just don't force it, allow the stone to do the work. It will not cut as fast but will give you a finer finish. I generally use water instead of oil on my Ark stones. But a light oil will work. Use a marker or dykem to ensure your staying flat. If you have any sharp edges on your vice cover them with tape so if by some chance you hit them with the stone you will not gouge it.

The sear Jigs hold the sear by the pivot hole then uses a screw to adj the angle. On one end will be a roller for the stone to ride on. This way only the sear is working the stone and it glides a lot easier.

As long as you go slow and don't try to rush the process you will be fine.

[FourCornerm'n]

Got the Norton Hard Arkansas Sharpening Stone - Ultra-Fine from Midway last evening. Small stone: 1/4 by 1/4 by 3 inches. Will forge ahead tentatively and lightly as all get out in the next day or two. Am shooting a lot now and might take one or two more practices before this work begins. Feel I need a real clear headed day to try to make the improvement this sear needs.

More kindergarten questions: How do I apply either water or light oil to the stone. That is, how often and how heavily. Rem-Oil was suggested. Is that a good light oil.

I have a good idea of how careful I must be with the mechanics of this project. Thanks for the important details, blue68. Wonder about the accessories, like the oil?

[blue68f100]

That is a pretty small stone so be careful not to break it.

I prefer water over oil. I can not remember the last time I used oil. Oil has a tendency to hold on to the metal where water does not. Making water easier to clean. You can just dunk it in water or use your fingers to apply it. On larger stones I use a water bottle, or squirt bottle. Since this is a new stome I would submerge the stone in water for a few minutes before starting. Then keep the stone wet, if dry you can wear the stone faster.

[FourCornerm'n]

Well, I've been whittling away to no great success, so far. And now I really need some help.

I thought I'd managed to get much of what I wanted on the first attempt before midweek. But a bunch of rounds told me success was illusory. I'm using two guides - the way the trigger feels as an action job - and the evidence on the sear and on the hammer slot as shown by Red Dykem. Been using the stone Bullseye recommended, and the water lubricant method of blue68.

I've today been trying to improve things by touching up here and there based on the best visuals I can get from a #5 Optivisor and a quality 10X lupe. The two stage effect is still there and that's what I need help with now.

I've been a little reckless tonight and have brought some barely visible burrs down and worked a little on the edge of the sear for the first time. As a result, the latter stage - the release - is lighter than ever, but only semi crisp, I believe. I will certainly be loading 2-3 rounds for at least half a dozen magazines next time out. I think I've brought the trigger down from about 3 lbs, to about 2. That might be a little hairy.

The double stage effect has again been reduced - shortened (closer to the release now) and again has less of a falling block sensation. But, it's still there and I want to be rid of it.

Early on I described the top of the sear (I may have thought it was the face) as showing by the Dykem areas of contact and others of no contact. I didn't realize I needed to be paying attention to the edge of the sear, not the top. I don't think 25 - 30 thousandths of the top of the sear is supposed to be coming into regular contact with the hammer slot at all. That's where a very obvious etched horizontal line was running for almost an inch behind the edge - apparently caused by hammer contact (?).

The situation now is that the left half of the sear is showing contact very near and slightly over the edge. The right half shows wear on top along most of its length (the 25 thousandths mentioned), but does not show wear right at or over the edge. The hammer slot face shows surprisingly even wear along its whole edge, but the area matching the extra contact on the sear, shows wear down into the face of the hammer slot.

Which is at fault? Is the sear, behind its edge, too high? Or is that part of the hammer slot below the edge, bulged out somewhat?

Both times I've worked on this problem I've worked on the sear to bring it down so it doesn't catch the hammer so high up on top of the sear. That's gotta be where the first stage creep is coming from, I think. I've tried to gently polish the hammer slot in the matching area, but Hoag once said to leave the hammer alone, so I'm trying to respect that.

I used this Ultra-Fine stone to try to polish the catching area on top of the sear while staying off the edge itself. I think that would be my next move, though if the hammer is the problem, that should be what I'm working on.

Any ideas?

I'm so flustered now that I won't be shooting the upcoming match I was preparing for. I'm not at all well practiced and I'm not going to waste more precious ammo trying to manage a lousy action. If I could rid this trigger of the final bit of two-staginess AND if I haven't taken things down so far that I now own a machine pistol, I could at least get some match experience next week, though not the match I'd hoped to do well in.

Everyone applauds VQ for making up for their mistakes, but they sent me two useless sears in a row, and I'm not happy about it.

Could use some experienced expertise just now.

Thanks