Hunting Semi-Auto Project(?)

RooK · Post by **RooK** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:06 pm

Bob, Allen, thanks for your comments.

In KY, it's legal to hunt deer with any centerfire cartridge in handgun or rifle. So legalities aren't a problem, even with the .45 if I decided to go that route. The barrel on the Witness is 4.5" or slightly longer. Not quite 5" of a full-size auto.

As of last Friday, my package from Midway came in. I immediately installed the 22lb recoil spring, extra power firing pin spring, and +10% mag spring in my Witness. I then started working up some loads with 800x and Power Pistol for 165gr Gold Dot and 200gr XTP (for hunting). Factory fodder can't touch full-power stuff, period. I'm still working up loads, but I hope to have about 50rnds of 200gr XTP over 9gr of 800x soon. My selection for a deer load. I'd go further with a chronograph, but I don't want to push my luck without one.

On Saturday I went to the flea market and found this guy outside with a few tables loaded with nothing but ammo and a couple handguns. So, just casually browsing I found a box of Winchester Black Talons in 10mm (200gr SXT, see avatar). I paid $30 for the box, but I got it mainly for collecting and won't shoot it. Still, looks like I did good considering people online are selling boxes for $40-45.

At the time I thought I paid a bit much.

Last night I got to work doing some smithing on the Witness. I polished the device that lifts the trigger bar and the rod it rides on. This made the DA much smoother and removed any grit. I then went a few quick passes over the sear to smooth up the surface a bit. I also cut the ejector down a bit to reduce the flying brass, but that's something I'll still have to play with. I'm also considering the EGW sear for this gun. You lose the firing pin stop, but it might help improve the trigger even more.

After that was done, I looked into fitting a set of Hogue rubber grips I bought for a small-frame Witness (they don't make them for the full-size). I'd heard you could stretch them (and did I ever) only to find out portions of the plastic didn't line up right and prevented the mag from going in. After a lot of sanding and filing on the grips, they fit fine now. My only complaint is the protrude slightly past the rear of the frame. Nothing a hit of sanding can't fix, but it isn't enough to warrant any action at the moment.

I'm still debating on a chronograph. I'll let you guys know if I get one so that I can put tangible data to the loads I'm working on.

allendavis · Post by **allendavis** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:38 pm

I've had a Colt Delta in 10mm, as well as several 1911 .45's in my time...

I, too, was quite enthralled with the 10mm when it first appeared. I bought one of those original Bren 10 models, but then was horrified that I couldn't get magazines for it. After stewing and pissing and moaning and crying into my beer over it for almost two years, I sold that gun. Can I enlist someone to come to Martinsville to kick me hard in the butt a few times now??? WHAT AN IDIOT I WAS TO SELL THAT PISTOL!

Considering the "Witness" style guns, I believe Tangfoglio (EAA) produces the Hunter Model 10mm, and that was a major consideration, at least as something to modify, or build to my liking.

If we're talking about the same gun, this is a derivation or copy of the original CZ-75 design, which the Bren 10 was also based upon. (Reversed rails, etc., and the capability of carrying safely cocked-n-locked.)

At my old Dept's range, I've shot several of them in both 9mm and .40, but never in the 10mm. They shot decent overall. I always like the CZ75 style grip. It seemed to fit my hand well.

Me, too. The grip felt great in my hand. Still, no gun has ever felt so good in my hand as a Hi-Power, especially with Hogue finger-grooved grips.

I'm still interested in doing the same project, but it was put on the backburner for awhile as I had several other pokers in the fire.

Join the club, Bob. So many guns, so little time. So many projects, so little money!!! If you have kids, you have no money, even though my oldest kid is almost 27 and my youngest is 23. They suck you dry (no pun intended). I'm just now getting my handloading/ballistics stuff back to where I was 20 years ago, with the exception of the new chronograph a buddy gifted me with. Kids going to college, even with scholarships, will still bleed you to death!

I tend to like the tried-and-true, and I subscribe to the idea that no really great cartridges have been invented since 1964 with the introduction of the .41 Magnum.

You like rifles, too? If so, which ones are your favorites?

For reference, if I had to go into battle, I'd pick the AK-47 for a general-purpose weapon. I do love a low-recoil .30-cal. If I wanted something for long range, I'd toss a coin between the .308 and .30-06, but hoping the coin would land on the .308. I love my 8mm Mauser, but the recoil is punishing, and identical to the '06. (I'd love to see a 7mm sniper rifle.)

Regards,

Allen

RooK · Post by **RooK** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:35 am

allendavis wrote:For reference, if I had to go into battle, I'd pick the AK-47 for a general-purpose weapon. I do love a low-recoil .30-cal. If I wanted something for long range, I'd toss a coin between the .308 and .30-06, but hoping the coin would land on the .308. I love my 8mm Mauser, but the recoil is punishing, and identical to the '06. (I'd love to see a 7mm sniper rifle.)

How about an AK in .308? I've a got a 16" Saiga I converted to pistol grip a couple years ago. Nice, portable gun.

BTW, I'm one of these college students you speak of. Kids may drain you of cash, but when you're one of them you don't have much money to begin with.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:02 am

How about an AK in .308? I've a got a 16" Saiga I converted to pistol grip a couple years ago. Nice, portable gun.

BTW, I'm one of these college students you speak of. Kids may drain you of cash, but when you're one of them you don't have much money to begin with.

[/quote]

Had 4 children that went to college, WHAIt IS MONEY?
they do look out for the folks thouigh, oldest son gave us his older car last year as a gift.

Handgunr · Post by **Handgunr** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:19 am

Al,

Yeah, I guess were on the "same page of music" regarding grip preference. Even though the CZ75 was the original platform for that grip style (damn Chek's had it right), and the Bren Ten had used that style for their gun, at least you were able to fondle yours-lucky.
I never had the privilege to just pick one up and hold it. I'm jealous.

You mentioned one gun I forgot that had the great "feel factor" and that was the Hi-Power. Even though I didn't use the 9mm much, I did have one. Didn't care for the caliber, but the grip was great. I didn't like it as much as the CZ though, but it was very close. Maybe the Hogues would make up the difference. I guess the 1911 was another favorite.

Regarding the kids, as parents, we all gotta go through that financial turmoil when it comes to our kids, don't we ?
My oldest will be 31 in December and he actually put himself through school. My ex-wife, his mom, was stubborn, and kept me out of the loop as much as possible. Never the less, he turned out well, and works for NOAA down in Virginia as a meteorlogical (sp?) analyist. Married and working on building his family.
Proud of him, as you all are of yours.
I have two other boys, 21 & 18, and a young daughter 12, as well as my two step kids, one boy 15, and my step daughter 11.

Were not rich folks, and being retired from my local Sheriff's Dept. on a disability income really sucks. My wife works hard, and we make it okay, but it gets tough more often than not. I've collected my guns, reloading and casting equipment, and all my other toys, over several years, as probably most here have done.
Every new toy, or project gun, is very precious to me as far as value. It comes hard earned more times than not.

Enough of that.....depresses the hell outta me....LOL

Yes, I am very partial to rifles, but more so to handguns, I guess. I was the Dept.'s range instructor for about 15yrs, and I dealt mostly with handgun and shotgun training with recruits, and road officers. We really didn't have rifles in the Dept. except for our response team (ERT) members. Our ERT had been loosely managed over past years, and I kept chipping away at our Sheriff until he let me take over and rearrange the group. After a couple of nasty situations within our county, it made him wake up....finally!
Our Capt. oversaw the ERT team and after an invitation for attend an FBI/Army Sniper/Observer school and I was nominated to attend. They even bought a gun for me and had me call Remington's Law Enforcement Sales to have it built to my liking. I loved spending their money, and ordered up a special 700VSSF in .308 with a MilDot Leupold.

I had grown up using and shooting rifles since I was about 8, and prior to being old enough to carry & shoot handguns, that was my only shooting toy, a longgun, for many years.
Well, needless to say, I was overjoyed to go, and that's putting it mildly.
The first year, was two weeks of advanced shooting, and the second year was 2 weeks of Army Fieldcraft.
When we first came to the line to shoot, on the very first day, we were confronted with shooting 5 rounds in 30 seconds at a coffee cup sized bullseye 200yds downrange. Never shooting this stuff before, we were all in disbelief.........WOW. Snipers from Canada, Ohio, PA, etc., as well as ourselves were freaked.
Anyhoo....it was a trip!

As far as a battle rifle.......that's a good one ?.....I'd probably opt for the FN/FAL, although the AK would take it "hands down" for reliability & function. Otherwise an AR in 308 might be an option. I had an old M14 a few years back, and although heavy as hell, I wish I had it back.

Mentioning the Mauser....I love that action....period. It might not be as strong as some others, but it's plenty good enough, and silky smooth. As soon as I can get my hands on another action, I'll be building a new gun I guess.

Rook......I used Blue Dot in one load I had built for my Delta. It was a 150-155gr. Sierra over 12.0grs. of Blue Dot. Not using Blue Dot all that much, it did a great job on paper at 25 yds.

Ramblin on here.....sorry.

Take care,
Bob

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:15 pm

The High Power is a good pistol but mine keeps eating my hand. I have large hands and the hammer keeps biting the fleshy part of my thumb. I've tried using the bobbed hammers but they still chafe my hand. I still shoot it, I just get a hand hickey afterwards.

I can see someone being a little nervous shooting at a small object at 200 yards for the first time but that's really an easy distance. We used to spice up our shooting practice by shooting soda cans of the tops of the target frames with the iron sights of our service rifles. Closeset one to the center of the can's logo won lunch from the challenger. Once you get familiar with your rifle, shooting a known distances are really very elementary procedures.

R,
Bullseye

RooK · Post by **RooK** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:17 pm

Handgunr wrote:Rook......I used Blue Dot in one load I had built for my Delta. It was a 150-155gr. Sierra over 12.0grs. of Blue Dot. Not using Blue Dot all that much, it did a great job on paper at 25 yds.

I'm using Power Pistol in my 165gr loads. It's very similar to Blue Dot, but less muzzle flash. Velocities are almost identical in what you can obtain. 800x is 'the' 10mm powder for velocity, it's getting stuffed in cases with a 200gr XTP on top. Last load I shot with it was 8.9gr. Definately has some kick to it.

The Witness, while based on the CZ design, it a lot bulkier due to the large hi-capacity frame. I have medium hands and find it a stretch to operate in DA with the stock grips. SA is fine, good thing you can carry it Cocked-N-Locked. I have since retro fitted the Hogue grips and they're thinner. This is why I love the 1911 with a short trigger, it just fits my hand period. I've also been eyeing a Hi-Power at the gun shop, but I'd like another 10mm handgun first. Perhaps a 1006 in good condition. Too bad they're luck of the draw if you find one for sale. A cousin of mine offered me a 1076 KY State Police gun a month ago, but I didn't have the cash at the time and he was needing money. Might check him out and see where it ended up.

Handgunr · Post by **Handgunr** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:15 am

Bullseye,

It wasn't the distance (200yds.) that bothered any of us. It was the timed fire course of 5 rnds. in 30 seconds with a bolt gun. That was the disbelief I mentioned. Most of us thought it was nearly impossible at first.....at least with any reasonable chance at accuracy.

Little did we know......it could be done pretty easily.

Live & learn I guess.....

Take care,
Bob

Post by **Bullseye** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:14 pm

I agree Bob, the bolt gun time limits are the same for highpower as the gas gun time limits. It's all in your head. But once you go through it a few times you gain the confidence to perform satisfactorily.

R,
Bullseye

Handgunr · Post by **Handgunr** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:43 am

Geesh.....

Just checked into the price on one of those Witness 10mm Hunter's and they retail up aroun $900.00.

I wonder what the "real world" money is on them.

I also thought about building one based on a longslide 1911. I've ordered Bar-Sto barrels in the past, and I've had great luck with them. Last one I got for my old Commander was in .38 Super (headspacing on the case mouth instead of the rim). Man what a difference that barrel made in accuracy......!

I'll have to research this one. Been kicking it around too long now....gotta do something.

Take care,
Bob

RooK · Post by **RooK** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:58 pm

The Hunter actually sells for around $700~. http://www.reedsammo.com/ will sell you one for $740 + $20S&H + transfer fee. Plus, I've heard they're not actually a 6" barrel. More like 5" with a funky bushing device on the front that makes up the extra inch, although you do get the sight radius.

The best buy is probably the Match. It comes with a bomar-style rear sight, SA trigger, nice hammer, and a slightly longer barrel (close to 5"). Retails around $450~.

EAA sells a 6" barrel for $185 if that was an option. I'm planning on going that route, eventually.

Handgunr · Post by **Handgunr** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:54 am

Choices to ponder...................???????

Thanks Rook...

Take Care,
Bob