Adjust sights, or adjust me?

[melchloboo]

Yesterday at the range one of my mentors saw my target, where I had a nice tight grouping in 9-8 ring at 12 oclock. He adjusted my rear sight down one click (clockwise), my next 10 shots were in the 10-9 ring.

I told him I felt like that was cheating, that at this stage as a beginner I should fix whatever I am doing to be high. He explained that every session people do things slightly differently, and once you have good groupings it is ok to adjust sights during the session to accommodate for whatever gremlin you have that day...as long as its only one click in any direction.

Any thoughts on this "debate" for a beginner? Also, is there a chart somewhere on line that explains which way to turn the screws on various pistols to adjust sights, I've seen other people with this chart but can't find it anywhere.

[recumbent]

heres a chart
http://www.eohc.ca/sighting.htm

I would listen to what he told you.

[recumbent]

here's another useful chart

http://www.makarov.com/graphics/targets/anatarget.jpg

[Bullseye]

Your mentor is correct. Once you have a good group going, then its time to make sight corrections. Of course this assumes that the group deviation is not a result of misapplication of fundamentals. Sometimes lighting on the range varies and that changes how you perceive your sight picture. Adjusting the sights for the conditions is the prudent thing to do. Just don't chase your shots with sight adjustments.

One or two clicks of sight adjustment is not much of a change downrange. But I have found that when a beginner adds one click to his/her sights that they also add one or two clicks in their mind, so the change appears to be far greater mentally than it is mechanically. That is likely reason why your coach is saying only use one click at a time.

Here's a chart like you were asking about.



Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[wlambert]

I told him I felt like that was cheating, that at this stage as a beginner I should fix whatever I am doing to be high.

I've seen people in my league think the same way. They sighted in their pistol resting on the bench, and think they need to adjust their technique to bring the center of their group to the center of the target when shooting off hand.

When shooting at a target, the idea is to get the highest score possible. Adjust your sights to keep in the center of the bull. Then if you do change your technique and your group moves, adjust your sights again.

I find myself making small adjustments from time to time. Not a problem, you just have to be sure something isn't working loose. Now a big change is something else. That is when it is time to check the equipment.

wlambert

[melchloboo]

thanks for the charts and advice. since we are on the subject, are there practical differences between the v-type sights with the fiber-optic front sight, like the ruger mark iii hunter, and traditional notch sights...for bullseye shooting...or is it just preference? are the v-type sights "legal" for nra competitions? for some reason it seems everyone in my club uses either traditional notch iron sights or red-dot scopes.

[Bullseye]

The traditional notch or "Partridge" sights are more accurate for competitive target shooting. They are easier to align on the target than the fiber optic tube style sights. The front blade of a partridge sight sits in the middle of the notch and has equal light on each side of the blade as a visual reference cue to the shooter. The V notch sight leaves the shooter to adjust the front sight to the center without the benefit of visual reference marks. Any slight variations of front and rear sight alignment are more difficult to see with a fiber optic style sights.

During sustained fire strings getting a consistent sight picture is extremely important to maximize scores. There's too much to chance without visual references and no time to actively think about aligning the sights during the timed and rapid fire strings. Sight alignment has to be intuitive, the visual cues just confirm that everything is right before the shot breaks. Any slight variation in sight alignment will translate to a far wider margin down range on the target.

Using a red dot sight takes most of the elements of sight alignment out of the picture. The dot illuminates where the bullet will strike, as long as the shooter looks through the optical sight tube the same way each time. The problem with this style sight is many shooters underestimate how critical head and body placement are to consistent shooting with the red dot sight. If one does not consistently position the optic dot sight the same manner then a parallax error is induced into the scope. The shots are now not referenced to the impacts on the target, but the shooter sees the same sight picture each time. I frequently see shooters aligning their dot sights up close on a stand, taking ample time to carefully adjust the screws, then wondering why the shots are striking the target at a different place when the gun is aimed with the arms extended outward. The answer is simple - parallax error, they adjusted the optical sight for one position and now they're using another position to shoot with it.

Also, many newer shooters have difficulty with the amount of movement that a red dot sight displays to the operator. The more they try to steady the sight the more the dot jiggles on the target. This leads to loss of trigger control by snapping the trigger as the dot momentarily centers on the target. I try to teach new shooters to use the iron sights and develop their fundamental sighting and trigger control skills before transitioning to the optic sights.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[melchloboo]

Yes, thanks. I just read an article by William Blankenship (in the old Gil Hebard book) wherein he stated that through trial and error, he found a greater ability to stay focused on the front sight by trying to focus on the top edge of it. He said he tried coloring the sights and other experiments, but nothing worked as well.

I find myself having trouble staying 100% focused on it for more than few seconds. Exactly as he stated in the article, my focus seems to go somewhere slightly past the front sight. His "trick" helped a little.

I wonder if a) I might benefit from actually having a front sight a little further (or if the same problem will happen), and b) since his article is a little dated, if since then more "tricks" on staying focused on the front sight have been discovered?

I was actually thinking that it might help to put a very small letter, number, or symbol on the sight because then there would be instant feedback to the brain as to focus. With just this black thing out there, I think my brain and eyes don't necessarily know if they are in focus, especially in lower light. Crazy?

[Bullseye]

Staying focused on the front sight can be challenging for the newer shooter. Some of this inability to stay at the front sight comes from the intense desire to see where the shots are hitting on the target. It's as if the newer shooter is desperately seeking positive feedback as to how the shots are hitting on the target. It takes a lot of confidence to believe that if you apply the fundamentals, the hits will be in the spot on the target where the top of the front sight appeared just before jumping in recoil. This lack of self confidence also manifests itself as the shooter peeks over the top of the sights to glimpse down range at the target. The mind and hands will cooperate with the subconscious brain and move the object obstructing vision (the gun) slightly down and out of view of the target ball, resulting in the successive hits accumulating in a group at six o'clock, well below the aiming black. Once a shooter's skills develop to a point where he/she has the confidence that wherever the sights are aligned on the target, then the hits will be at that aiming point. The downrange target must remain out of focus for the entire string. Once a shooter can develop this skill the shooter's performance will drastically increase.

R,
Bullseye

[melchloboo]

I understand your reasoning, and I did suffer from this problem at one time. But I think what I am talking about is the brain's ability to know it is actually focused on the front sight, without visual cues. What I mean by that, is that I know I am focusing on the target if I can make out its lines and edges with clarity. This applies to the front sight also, but I don't think the same cues are given...it will blur a little when not in focus, but not by much...and its hard to tell if it is perfectly in focused or just slightly off. That is why I have the theory that if I paste a small letter or symbol onto the front sight blade, my brain will know if it is focused or not if it can read the letter clearly. I don't have any problem keeping focused while reading at the same distance as the front sight with my arm extended.

This problem is slightly amplified by my range, which is outdoors but shaded (no direct sun), so I think it is actually a little dark. I also tend to practice in the late afternoon. It is harder to see the blade there than at home under normal room lighting. I have seen clip-on LED work lights for caps and even ears (like a bluetooth headset). If I put one on my hat and pointed it the front sight for better light while I"m shooting, is this legal for NRA competitions? Is there a rule against a shooter mounting a battery powered light on his range box?

Sorry I have taken this thread in many directions. I will be happy to split t up if need be

[Bullseye]

When I'm concentrating on the front sight, my main area of focus is the light on either side of the front sight blade. That is were I get my cue that the sight is in focus. As long as the light is even, sharp and clear, I'm focused on the front sight.

Other cues can be added to a front sight blade by using a 30 or 40 LPI checkering file to add small horizontal lines on the aiming side of the front sight blade. When focused these lines are sharp and clear to the shooter. However, low light conditions could limit the effectiveness of these lines on the sight blade.

Artificial illumination is permitted at the range but is subject to interpretation by match officials. The range facility can provide additional lighting to assist shooters in covered areas, but shooter's providing their own artificial light sources may not be allowed within the spirit of competition. Especially if that illumination could be deemed as distractive by other shooters in that competition. The rules do not specifically prohibit this type of lighting but leave it up to match officials to determine the legality of additional equipment.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[melchloboo]

thanks, scratching in lines as you suggest sounds like a better solution. i think it has the advantage of depth as well, and may cut down on glare. my sights are still new and smooth without deformities, so maybe that is part of the problem.

LPI=lines per inch?

I will try this before monkeying around with lighting.

[Bullseye]

LPI equals lines per inch. The finer LPI the better for the front sight. Use some duct tape at the base of the sight and place the safe side of the file toward the pistol's receiver to prevent accidental damage to the finish while adding the serrations.

R,
Bullseye

[bingd]

"Using a red dot sight takes most of the elements of sight alignment out of the picture. The dot illuminates where the bullet will strike, as long as the shooter looks through the optical sight tube the same way each time. The problem with this style sight is many shooters underestimate how critical head and body placement are to consistent shooting with the red dot sight. If one does not consistently position the optic dot sight the same manner then a parallax error is induced into the scope. The shots are now not referenced to the impacts on the target, but the shooter sees the same sight picture each time. I frequently see shooters aligning their dot sights up close on a stand, taking ample time to carefully adjust the screws, then wondering why the shots are striking the target at a different place when the gun is aimed with the arms extended outward. The answer is simple - parallax error, they adjusted the optical sight for one position and now they're using another position to shoot with it."s

@ Bullseye

Sir, is today's red dot, like my Bushnell Trophy, as they claimed parallax free 100% true? Is there a way of checking its veracity?

Thanks,

bingd

[Bullseye]

@ Bullseye

Sir, is today's red dot, like my Bushnell Trophy, as they claimed parallax free 100% true? Is there a way of checking its veracity?
Thanks,
bingd

The only true way to test this is to try intentionally positioning your head in different places behind the scope and see if the holes consistently group away from where the dot is located.

R,
Bullseye