I broke my new 22/45? hammer won't drop

OlMansRuger · Post by **OlMansRuger** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:45 am

SHORT STORY OF THIS THREAD: DON'T MESS AROUND WITH A FIREARM UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
I created an unsafe pistol by removing too much of the sear

this is a fairly new M3 22/45

have detailed stripped it a few times (thanks bulleyes for the great doco) and things worked fine

decided i would try to 'clean things up a bit' action wise and polished some internals (hammer sides, sear, disconnector)

i've spent several hours taking it apart and putting it back together. each time is the same. the hammer won't drop, unless 'assisted' by pushing on it.

i've put the mainspring housing back in i see the sear release when i pull the trigger but the hammer appears to be getting stuck on the MSH

now, when i reassemble, the following happens:
a) the hammer won't drop

if i pull the bolt back, put the safety on, then drop the bolt, then release the safety, the hammer drops.

(i've tried to remove the safety and mag disconnect with receiver off and MSH in to see where the hammer is getting stuck. as i said above, it appears it's on the back of the MSH)

how did i screw up my pistol?

have plenty of pics if they'd help....

http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g43 ... nnaDoThis/

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:38 am

I don't own a 22/45 but will try to help you on what I have read on others who have had problems.

The first thing that comes to mind is the sear spring not installed correctly, flipped. Are the pins all the way in and not backed out, check both sides. If your running out of travel (rearward) on the trigger, Is the trigger bottoming out on the frame? I would only think of this if a aftermarket trigger. Is the safety detent and spring in the safety lever so it hold the safety lever up?

Welcome to GTO.

OlMansRuger · Post by **OlMansRuger** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:21 am

thanks for the input blue

i've attached some pics to assist

sear spring seems to be fine. all pins are locked on springs. not having an issue with the trigger, it's the hammer getting stuck on the MSH. without the MSH, things work just fine

sorry for the crappy pic, trying to show when trigger is pulled, sear moves out of the way

not sure what i can't post pics

sear spring
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g43 ... 1302272345

safety install
http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g43 ... safety.jpg

hammer/safety/spring
http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g43 ... rassmb.jpg

sear moved with trigger
http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g43 ... rmoved.jpg

greener · Post by **greener** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:00 pm

Sounds as if the hammer strut is not in the MSH.

You might want to assemble the frame components and the MSH without the receiver. That would allow you to watch the hammer for any obstructions. Note, use a finger to stop the hammer from going full forward.

OlMansRuger · Post by **OlMansRuger** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:48 am

hi greener, thanks for the advice. as tricky as it can be at first, i've done exactly what you' suggest, several times.
took the pistol to the dealer, broke it down and put it back together (w/o receiver) a few times. both scratched our head and he had no clue.

ended up sending back to ruger. peggy was kind enough to remind me that i should have called ruger and talked to tech before sending it.

hate to lose it for several weeks, but wasn't doing much good the way it was...

i'll post results from ruger when i receive it

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:24 am

OlMansRuger wrote:hi greener, thanks for the advice. as tricky as it can be at first, i've done exactly what you' suggest, several times.
took the pistol to the dealer, broke it down and put it back together (w/o receiver) a few times. both scratched our head and he had no clue.

ended up sending back to ruger. peggy was kind enough to remind me that i should have called ruger and talked to tech before sending it.

hate to lose it for several weeks, but wasn't doing much good the way it was...

i'll post results from ruger when i receive it

Evidently your LGS does not have a smith on the premises. There are a lot of places like that now that just sell and do not really take care of their custom es, service wise. My LGS has bee in business for 48 plus year and is an old friend of mine, he is primarily a gunsmith, sells new and used guns and other supplies and can get moat anything you want in a day or two. He has a least 4 gunsmiths on staff at all times. They can usually take care of any problem for you and if you bought the gun ther, it is usually at no charge. By the way are you really and oldman?????

greener · Post by **greener** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:31 am

I hope Ruger sends a diagnosis when they return the pistol. I looked at your photos and didn't see anything obvious. The mag disconnect assembly binds the hammer slightly. On the pre-mag disconnect models and MKIII's with this removed the hammer falls forward freely during field strip. It needs a push when the disconnect is installed. At first I thought this is what you were talking about. If the hammer strut and main spring were working properly, the mag disconnect assembly would have been the next bind point to check.

I didn't mind the mag disconnect from a shooting standpoint, but it was a bit of an annoyance on reassembly, so I replaced it with a Sam Lam bushing.

OlMansRuger · Post by **OlMansRuger** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:24 am

bearandoldman - sounds like you're lucky to have such an experienced staff supporting you. this guy is a 'smith, but not sure how extensive his experience is. he has little with the M3, which wasn't exactly confidence building (when I'm reminding him he needs to put mag in or take it out)

"By the way are you really and oldman?????"
not an olDman man, someone's "ol man"

greener - i literally spent 8+ hours over 2 days taking it apart and putting it back together. when the pistol was 'assembled' (w/o receiver) you could cock it manually, but then pull the trigger see the sear move but the hammer was literally stuck on the MSH. with a little push at the front of the hammer, it would release.

it seems like i bent the MSH somehow (don't know how, never forced anything together or apart on it).

when i talked to peggy yesterday i requested that someone let me know what happened.

it's frustrating when you and the dealer both look at it and everything looks ok, but it's obviously not. neither of us could figure HOW the hammer could be hitting the MSH - unless it was bent. he didn't have any other Marks to swap MSH - so i decided to let ruger handle it....

as for the mag disconnect, i'm with ya, and plan on doing something similar. it's not that big of a deal, but frankly, i don't see the point in it (other than causing frustration)

thanks again GTO for taking a peek at this problem. looking forward to getting the pistol back, understanding what happened, and gettin' the lead out

Post by **Bullseye** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:59 am

When I look at your photos I see one thing that stands out. Did you polish a significant break-away angle into the sear face? It looks very prominent in the pictures. This may have been enough to change the geometry of the sear/hammer interface and cause binding which in turn causes the hammer failure. How did the trigger feel? Did it feel connected to the hammer?

R,
Bullseye

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:06 am

Had I spent that long trying to make it work, there probably would not be much of the gun or the walls in my house left at this time. My smith has been a friend for a long time, since the mid 50's when we were both young and he worked for a Hardware that sold an repaired guns. That is where he learned his trade. Good people to deal with, you are a name there and not just a face and besides a name you are a friend which is better yet. His son is second in command and a partner as the old guy is just slightly younger than me and ready to retire.

OlMansRuger · Post by **OlMansRuger** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:32 pm

When I look at your photos I see one thing that stands out. Did you polish a significant break-away angle into the sear face? It looks very prominent in the pictures. This may have been enough to change the geometry of the sear/hammer interface and cause binding which in turn causes the hammer failure. How did the trigger feel? Did it feel connected to the hammer?

not sure (which isn't what you want to hear) on the angle. here's a pic:

as far as feeling connected, it did. what i'm unclear about is how that angle could, for lack of better words, "push" the hammer back

as you can see on the sear, i did remove some metal. everything else, including the hammer were hand polished

was trying to follow the AGI video on cleaning up the trigger a bit, without buying new parts. sounds like i'll be buying a new sear? not sure how this'll be handled. it's a "Factory restricted" part.

"Had I spent that long trying to make it work, there probably would not be much of the gun or the walls in my house left at this time. "

i hear ya. i stopped a few times, especially during the first 6 hours, but couldn't leave the damn thing alone for too long.[/img]

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:53 pm

When you get it back from Ruger it will have all unmodified stock parts in it. I have 3 Mark II 22/45's and all I have done was add a pre travel screw to the trigger and a VQ sear, works fine as far as I can see. Others opinions may and most likely will vary.

Post by **Bullseye** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:27 pm

Since you've already sent it in they'll bring it back up to factory specifications with replacement parts. This would have to be one pistol I personally inspected to determine the actual cause of the failure. I poked some around and saw some more detailed info posted in your threads at RFC. You may have went a wee bit too far in your polishing and that's a main cause for hammer release when the thumb safety is moved to "fire". Not to worry all will be as good as new once you get it back.

R,
Bullseye

OlMansRuger · Post by **OlMansRuger** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Since you've already sent it in they'll bring it back up to factory specifications with replacement parts. This would have to be one pistol I personally inspected to determine the actual cause of the failure. I poked some around and saw some more detailed info posted in your threads at RFC. You may have went a wee bit too far in your polishing and that's a main cause for hammer release when the thumb safety is moved to "fire". Not to worry all will be as good as new once you get it back.

Thanks for being "kind" to a dummy BE. I certainly went more than a "wee bit".

This is how little I understood about the process I was trying to do:

i read this:
"AGI says remove about 1/3 of total engagement and the Clark people just eyeball it, but I'm a fanatic about precision and repeatability, so I dye the sear and scribe a mark where the edge of the hammer hook meets it. Then I measure the engagement and take it down to .020 engagement. Reducing engagement on the hammer side can lead to doubles or hammer follows, so it's recommended to take it off the sear side instead"

but since I'm very new to firearms in general, I missed a very important part, the bold section. I was ignorant enough to think 1/3 of the total sear face, not the engagement

It's probably a good thing I went too far instead of bringing an unsafe pistol to fire

Thanks again for the help.

I've learned my lesson and hope anyone else who's thinking they'd do this, please learn from my mistake.

Im looking forward to getting it back, but am hopeful they won't charge much more than 30 for a new sear. I see they don't sell them, they're "factory restricted"

greener · Post by **greener** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:07 pm

OlMansRuger wrote:
Thanks for being "kind" to a dummy BE. I certainly went more than a "wee bit".

He gets lots of practice being kind to me. Everyone else is isn't as trying.

OlMansRuger wrote: I've learned my lesson and hope anyone else who's thinking they'd do this, please learn from my mistake.

You learned how to detail strip and assemble a Ruger. Most folks quake in terror at the idea of field stripping one. I learned to look closer at the sear picture and get one of my factory sears out for reference. Sorry I didn't do that.

I got to learn to look at something else when troubleshooting.

Being adventursome is a great way of learning. Most of the time the worst that can happen is a box of Ruger parts looking for a gunsmith or Arizona.

OlMansRuger wrote:Im looking forward to getting it back, but am hopeful they won't charge much more than 30 for a new sear. I see they don't sell them, they're "factory restricted"

If we had hit the potential problem earlier, it would have been a great time to pitch replacing the factory sear with a VQ sear.