Richmond Makes the News

greener · Post by **greener** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:34 pm

ABC ran an antigun piece on 20/20 Friday night and CBS followed up with one on 60 minutes tonight. Both featured a gun show held at the Show Place. C&E holds one there about 4-5 times per year. Both covered extensively the "gun show loop hole" and had, as a feature, the brother of a VA Tech student who was killed in the shooting tragedy two years ago. Assault weapons were also featured by both. I thought 60 Minutes gave had the better, fairer coverage but only because they featured Phillip Van Cleave, President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a very active gun rights group.

The "gun show loophole" is sales between private citizens that happen at gun shows. No NICS check is required. I suppose Virginia is famous for this, but according to both reports this is legal in almost 40 states. Both tried to make this the major source of firearms going to criminals. I haven't seen many criminal types lined up at gun shows I've attended, so I'm clueless about how all the crime in the northeast comes from gun shows. In fact, most of the private sales I've seen are collector's firearms such and not modern firearms.

Both ABC and CBS mentioned that Glocks could be purchased and then went immediately into a reprise of the VA Tech tragedy. 60 Minutes spent more time on the recent votes in the State legislature upholding the right of sales, without checks, between private citizens. There was a "pregnant" pause after the word "Glock" was mentioned.

ABC gave the brother of a VA Tech student $5 grand to purchase firearms. He bought 12 and said that some dealers demanded more money when he refused to show an ID (rifles and shot guns). I'm not a legal scholar, but this seems like illegal straw man purchases. It also is contrary to my observations at Richmond gun shows. The transactions I've seen end immediately when the buyer looks shakey. I saw one at the last gun show in which a guy offered to buy every LCP the dealer had, then pitched a fit when the dealer refused to sell more than one and then refused to sell him anything after he started raising Cain about the buy.

I didn't think highly of either piece, but I did enjoy Van Cleave stopping Leslie Stahl a couple of times with his responses.

60 minutes did the obligatory evil NRA controlling congress piece. I may have to send more money to the NRA.

I was totally unaware that I live in the center of bad guns for the US. Looks the media, despite a substantial move in public opinion favoring gun ownership, has started its campaign for gun control. Hang on tight.

PS. SWMBO said it couldn't be a Richmond gun show, I wasn't in any of the footage.

smokey · Post by **smokey** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:55 am

I saw the show on 20/20. Although it angered me somewhat, it was a relatively weak argument for gun control since only one side was given. I hope that most people have enough sense to see this.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:43 am

Greener, in my opinion it was an illegal straw purchase and he network should be prosecuted as required. Not totally understanding of VA laws as far as gun sales about FTF between citizens and citizen from a dealer. Just talked to my friend?/dealer and here are the MI requirements
Michigan requires a pistol purchase permit or an up to date concealed pistols license to purchase a handgun in the state, whether from an FFL dealer or a private citizen. FTF from a dealer the Federal check is required, FTF from a private citizen no federal check required. Whether at a gun show or in his shop a dealer must do the Federal check on all sales whether long gun or hand gun. Long guns between private citizens, no Federal check required.

KAZ · Post by **KAZ** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:03 am

greener, don't you know that the reason Mexicans are killing each other at a mad pace is that Americans are sending guns across the border. The reason murders are up in America's Northeast despite rigorous firearms laws is the availability of guns in neighboring states. If only you and I would give up our guns these criminals would be forced to give up criminal enterprise as a way of life. Even that august body the UN believes that crime/wars across the planet can be put behind us with worldwide gun control. Sad that folks like bearandoldman,Bullseye,Hak,smokey,80 million legal gun owners,and you and I are the cause of so many problems.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:31 am

KAZ wrote:greener, don't you know that the reason Mexicans are killing each other at a mad pace is that Americans are sending guns across the border. The reason murders are up in America's Northeast despite rigorous firearms laws is the availability of guns in neighboring states. If only you and I would give up our guns these criminals would be forced to give up criminal enterprise as a way of life. Even that august body the UN believes that crime/wars across the planet can be put behind us with worldwide gun control. Sad that folks like bearandoldman,Bullseye,Hak,smokey,80 million legal gun owners,and you and I are the cause of so many problems.

What was it Charlton Heston said? my exact sentiments. Take away the guns from good guys and then only the bad guys will have them. So many guys wit CPL/CCW rarely carry, they say they will only carry if they have to go to a bad part of town, I tell them the bad guys are over hear because ther is nothing in the bad part of town to steal. I only carry it if I think I am going to need it. why don't you leave the spare for your car in the garage and only put it in the car when you are going to have a flt tire. Us old guy really don/t care what we say because we keep a 1911 in our b\hip pocket holster.

greener · Post by **greener** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:39 pm

KAZ wrote:greener, don't you know that the reason Mexicans are killing each other at a mad pace is that Americans are sending guns across the border. The reason murders are up in America's Northeast despite rigorous firearms laws is the availability of guns in neighboring states. If only you and I would give up our guns these criminals would be forced to give up criminal enterprise as a way of life. Even that august body the UN believes that crime/wars across the planet can be put behind us with worldwide gun control. Sad that folks like bearandoldman,Bullseye,Hak,smokey,80 million legal gun owners,and you and I are the cause of so many problems.

Yep. Keeps me awake all day at work worrying about this. Cute comment in the 60 minutes piece was to the effect that the percentage of folks in the US who believe in more gun control has dropped from above 60% to 49% since 2000 and we really need to do something about that. Never mind what the people want, the media and right-thinking members of Congress are doing their best to buck this trend.

link to the 60 Minutes piece. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... econdStory

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:22 pm

They are always talking about assault weapons. I f I take my 9 iron or maybe a sand wedge and beat he living daylight out of you, does that not qualify as an assault weapon, because I used it as a weapon to assault you????????? May not qualify as it is stainless steel and not black.

greener · Post by **greener** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:47 pm

bearandoldman wrote:They are always talking about assault weapons. I f I take my 9 iron or maybe a sand wedge and beat he living daylight out of you, does that not qualify as an assault weapon, because I used it as a weapon to assault you????????? May not qualify as it is stainless steel and not black.

Something in a nice pink or pastel, makes it not an assault weapon.

Pistol grip, semi- or full automatic, flash suppressor and bayonet lug. Never could figure out the bayonet lug bit. I did some training with sticking a knife on the end of a steel M14 stick. "There are two kinds of people in bayonet combat, the quick and the dead." I figured I would be the latter.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:50 pm

greener wrote:
bearandoldman wrote:They are always talking about assault weapons. I f I take my 9 iron or maybe a sand wedge and beat he living daylight out of you, does that not qualify as an assault weapon, because I used it as a weapon to assault you????????? May not qualify as it is stainless steel and not black.
Something in a nice pink or pastel, makes it not an assault weapon.

Pistol grip, semi- or full automatic, flash suppressor and bayonet lug. Never could figure out the bayonet lug bit. I did some training with sticking a knife on the end of a steel M14 stick. "There are two kinds of people in bayonet combat, the quick and the dead." I figured I would be the latter.

I figure out that the sand wedge is out, would go for a 3 or 4 iron, they have a longer reach.

smokey · Post by **smokey** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:27 pm

Isn't it funny that they consider an assault rifle anything that looks like a modern day military rifle? Maybe if someone manufactured a pink, cute, but fully automatic 223 caliber rifle with a 50 round magazine they would not classify it as an assault rifle.

greener · Post by **greener** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:40 pm

bearandoldman wrote: Michigan requires a pistol purchase permit or an up to date concealed pistols license to purchase a handgun in the state, whether from an FFL dealer or a private citizen. FTF from a dealer the Federal check is required, FTF from a private citizen no federal check required. Whether at a gun show or in his shop a dealer must do the Federal check on all sales whether long gun or hand gun. Long guns between private citizens, no Federal check required.

I think they did away with the "safety check" required for used handguns.

Makes me feel better to know that the only gun toters in Detroit went through all that.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:51 pm

greener wrote:
bearandoldman wrote: Michigan requires a pistol purchase permit or an up to date concealed pistols license to purchase a handgun in the state, whether from an FFL dealer or a private citizen. FTF from a dealer the Federal check is required, FTF from a private citizen no federal check required. Whether at a gun show or in his shop a dealer must do the Federal check on all sales whether long gun or hand gun. Long guns between private citizens, no Federal check required.
I think they did away with the "safety check" required for used handguns.

Makes me feel better to know that the only gun toters in Detroit went through all that.

They did away with the safety inspection thing shortly after the first of they year in 2009, it was just really another word for registration as the never did check any t5hing on the gun other that the ser#. Now when you buy a new hand gun they just send another copy to the Sheriff and then it is still registered, you just don't have to take it to them to look at.

SKnight · Post by **SKnight** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:25 pm

When I bought my AR recently from an individual he asked to see my permit, then said he hopes I didn't mind.

I was happy that he did.

Criminals will get guns easily enough. Always have, always will.

Do gun shows need to tighten up on who they sell to? Yes. Do we need more laws? Nope, enforce what we have, that'll go a long way.

If they tighten up on gun shows and who they sell to, that just means there'll be more room to walk.

greener · Post by **greener** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:39 pm

I think you missed the point. Dealers at gun shows must go through the NICS checks. If you buy from a dealer, you must fill out the Federal and State forms. Private sales between individuals do not require any checks or permits or such. The gun show "loophole" is legal private sales between individuals that happen at gun shows. Since you can sell your gun to a dealer, how do you stop people from bringing guns to shows. Also, some gun smiths set up in the shows and will make some minor repairs/mods while you wait.

The "loop hole" is a legal sale between individuals. The only difference between the sale at the gun show and across the street is location. According to 60 Minutes, this is legal in at least 30 states.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:09 pm

OK Greener, that is the same as in MI
Person to person no NCIS check required
Dealer to person, NCIS check is required
Plus in MI a permit to purchase or a valid COL is required to purchase a hand gun whether from a person or a dealer.
Private sale of a handgun the purchaser must be 18 or over but must be over 21 to purchase from a dealer. 18 is MI law and 21 i Fed