Carry-Ability gun

Hi Ball · Post by **Hi Ball** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:09 pm

Hakaman when it comes to carrying a pistol for self-defense, the first thing on the menu is RELIABILITY 100% of the time. Now the wife and I both went through the pocket pistol syndrom with Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P-11 and the PF-9. Lots of JAMS with both pistols and I certainly don't "limp wrist" a pistol ok. Also shot a couple of those Kahr's in 9mm and .380-auto, they too jammed during the session on her as well as myself. Rental guns at the range may be but I don't really know.

The Sigs are reliable but that first shot out the gate is a 10-lb trigger pull and most shooters will miss Low by 3 or 4 inches or more on that first and most important shot. Sig's are a no go for us!

The Glock 26 or 27 model fill the bill very nicely and they do go BANG every time out the gate, no matter what kind of ammo you feed the pistol. We also found that accuracy with a sub-compact Glock was twice that of any of those so called pocket pistols. Most of those are good for around 12 ft and after that, things get very spread out on the target, a 9 inch pie plate.

The wife keeps all her shots, firing a fast double tap in that 7inch circle in center of that pie plate at 21 ft and that is gratafying to know for my sake.

Hi Ball · Post by **Hi Ball** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:21 pm

Hakaman.....I wear jeans a lot, especially around our place and my Glock 22 in 40cal with 4.49 inch barrel fits just right in my back pocket of my jeans, with my T-Shirt covering up the grip portion of the pistol. It also gives me plenty to grip, if I should have to draw it out quickly ok. I also have the pistol in a good pocket holster.

This Glock 22 if very accurate at 25 to 40 yards out! No problem at all hitting 9 inch pieplates every time out the gate with this pistol. However, you may want to try out the various sizes for your own use. I also have the sub-compact model also in a 27 model.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:13 pm

Here are a few quotes from a forum I visited inre of the PM9:

I love my PM9. Have about ~600 rounds through it without a single FTF. Is lightweight, accurate, and small...very easy to conceal.

It is awesome. I had a few FTFs in the first 50 or so rounds, but that was expected. Kahr says that it takes +/-200 rounds to break it in but mine only took about 50 or 60. It works flawlessly now. I was using a Glock 26 for concealed carry, but this little Kahr is a dwarf compared to the G26. THe trigger pull is a little longer than the Glock, but after a few magazines full, I was used to it and it was no problem at all.

You need to be comfortable with the hanging fingers, as the grip is short. I've tried one, and went with the P9 instead as I found I had more control. If your range rents them, try test firing before you buy.

The hanging finger wasn't an issue for me as I was already used to carrying a Glock 26 (& occasionally a G27). A lot of people complain about the hanging finger, but I don't get what the big deal is.

*shrugs* For me, it feels like the gun is going to pop out of my hand like a bar of soap. I prefer the feel of all my fingers on the grip. If you can shoot the shorter grip and are comfortable with it, that's great. Just doesn't work for me.

I shoot free-pinkey guns more than regular guns and it doesnt bother me at all with the shooting...where I do notice it is on the draw....its harder to go fast with the shorter grip.

PatchBunny: If it really does feel like its going to slip out, you need some sort of grip enhancment....my favorite is Agrip ( www.brookstactical.com . Its way better than skate tape or hogue sleeves. If it just feels less secure you need to analyze what it really takes to hold the gun. One exercise I do with new shooters or when I'm evaluating a gun for "limp-wrist" potential, is to have them shoot the gun one handed with the loosest grip they can possibly muster. Usually this cures people of the idea that the gun is going to whip up and conk them in the face, gets them started towards relaxing while they shoot, and helps cure over gripping problems. What you really find is that with most guns if you're exerting enough pressure between your trigger finger and thumb, you've got enough grip going to stay ahold of the pistol.....not true with the hand cannons but fine for most PDWs.

Yleefox · Post by **Yleefox** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:20 am

Well I couldn't help but throw my .02 cents worth in here. I've been carrying for a long time now and this is my experience (here in Florida where it's really hot and humid). I started out with a Sig P220 in .45 acp. I could hide it reasonable well with a larger than normal T-shirt, but I usually used a one size large heavier botton down shirt (not tucked in). At times I carried a Walther PPK. I could fit that gun in a pocket sometimes (depending on the pocket), but the problem was removing it from that pocket in a hurry. I eventually switched to a Para Ord Carry 9, relatively light in weight, slim in design, held enough rounds of 9mm, and after the initial break in...superbly reliable and accurate. I can't carry it in a pocket (except a coat pocket, which doesn't happen often here), but it is sooooo easy to hide under a T-shirt it's almost a sin. Back when I first started toting concealed, I worried that everyone would notice that little bulged or crease in my shirt as a CCW. Not a chance. Even my wife of 25 years will question me, as to whether or not I'm armed and she's very observant of fashion (haha). The point I'm trying to make, is that it's not that hard to hide a reasonably sized handgun on your person.

In my humble opinion, it is far better to be able to hit your target than to hide your gun perfectly. It is also better to become intimate with that one gun than to switch from gun to gun and back again, and then in a moment of intense stress try to operate the gun you have at the moment effectively. Practise, practise, practise.

Just my thoughts and I know I have deviated a bit from the original question.

Good luck on whatever you chose Hak
Y

Hi Ball · Post by **Hi Ball** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:08 am

Hakaman I put over 500 rounds through a KEL-TEC P-11 and over 350 rounds each through a PF-9. Still, they do jam!!! Women can not handle the P-11 very well and the looooong trigger pull.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:31 pm

Well I couldn't help but throw my .02 cents worth in here. I've been carrying for a long time now and this is my experience (here in Florida where it's really hot and humid). I started out with a Sig P220 in .45 acp. I could hide it reasonable well with a larger than normal T-shirt, but I usually used a one size large heavier botton down shirt (not tucked in). At times I carried a Walther PPK. I could fit that gun in a pocket sometimes (depending on the pocket), but the problem was removing it from that pocket in a hurry. I eventually switched to a Para Ord Carry 9, relatively light in weight, slim in design, held enough rounds of 9mm, and after the initial break in...superbly reliable and accurate. I can't carry it in a pocket (except a coat pocket, which doesn't happen often here), but it is sooooo easy to hide under a T-shirt it's almost a sin. Back when I first started toting concealed, I worried that everyone would notice that little bulged or crease in my shirt as a CCW. Not a chance. Even my wife of 25 years will question me, as to whether or not I'm armed and she's very observant of fashion (haha). The point I'm trying to make, is that it's not that hard to hide a reasonably sized handgun on your person.
In my humble opinion, it is far better to be able to hit your target than to hide your gun perfectly. It is also better to become intimate with that one gun than to switch from gun to gun and back again, and then in a moment of intense stress try to operate the gun you have at the moment effectively. Practise, practise, practise.

Hakaman I put over 500 rounds through a KEL-TEC P-11 and over 350 rounds each through a PF-9. Still, they do jam!!! Women can not handle the P-11 very well and the looooong trigger pull.

Thanks for your very good replies. I have scoured various resources to help me make my final choice. Yes it is best to be ready with that "one" full size power house. Actually, if I could easily conceal a SA 1911 Trophy Match I would (besides affording one). I have heard many "positive" articles on the Kar PM9 as to their "carry-ability" and reliability that I feel confident that it will be ready if I ever need it. I don't think I would have a difficult time switching from one to the other, but you make a good point in that one must be prepared if the situation arose.
As far as Kel-Tec, I have read "mixed" reports on it's reliability, that's why I chose the Kar. They say you need about 200 rounds through the Kar to get the newness out of it, then it is very reliable. I just can't stand having a big gun "strapped" to my side, as this is the way it feels to me in the summer. I carry my wallet in my front pocket, so I am used to having something there. It is 15.9 oz w/mag included, 5.3"L x 4.0"h x .90"w .
Well I hope it works out well, and I appreciate your input, thanks.
Hak

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:53 pm

I got my PM-9 today. It feels very solidly built, and comfortable. It need a pocket holster though, I have the galco on order. I'll post a couple photos tomorrow. I field stripped it and cleaned all the heavy lube out of it. It is a little stiff right now, they say it takes 200rds to get this gun broken in. Sweeet look'n gun.
Haka

greener · Post by **greener** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:07 pm

I've seen a couple of those on the range lately. Owners seem to be very pleased with them.

Hi Ball · Post by **Hi Ball** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:25 am

Hakaman, lots of good luck I throw your way with your new Kahr! I shot two rental Kahr's and both jammed on me (9mm & 40 cal) but the owner got the same result.

I carry GLOCK 29 because of the RELIABILTY FACTOR using all types of ammo!!!

Like I stated, I own Kimbers, Sigs, Colts, Smith & Wessons and the Ugly Duckling is what I carry for self-defense on the street and around the ranch. It is very hard to beat the terminal effects of a 165 grain bullet going over 1300fps in a 10mm caliber.

Post by **Bullseye** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:42 am

With shot placement their all the same - send two to the heart and one to the brain!

Mozambique-em!

R,
Bullseye

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:15 am

This is the new member to the family, PM-9093N

Standard size magazine inserted

Extended magazine inserted for extra round and longer grip

A closer view of the works with extended mag in place

Tritiun Night sights ready for action

I was suprised how nicely the "night sights" work. Pretty cool.
thanks, haka

bigfatdave · Post by **bigfatdave** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:06 pm

Nice!
How does it perform on targets?

One thing I wish I had on my PPS was the night sights, not that I am in the habit of getting into late night gunfights, but it would be nice to have the GitD sights on my home defense pistol. Those look easy to see, I assume they are the kind that has to be charged up, how long are they good for after sitting in the light?

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:38 pm

I've seen a couple of those on the range lately. Owners seem to be very pleased with them.

I am very happy with the gun after my first trip to the range with it. It seems very solidly built, and comfortable for it's size.

Hakaman when it comes to carrying a pistol for self-defense, the first thing on the menu is RELIABILITY 100% of the time. Now the wife and I both went through the pocket pistol syndrom with Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P-11 and the PF-9. Lots of JAMS with both pistols and I certainly don't "limp wrist" a pistol ok. Also shot a couple of those Kahr's in 9mm and .380-auto, they too jammed during the session on her as well as myself. Rental guns at the range may be but I don't really know.

I shot 100 rds thru it today, many at rapid fire pace, and there wasn't even a hint of failure. Chambering, ejecting, firing, feeding, etc, 100% successful. The gun is still breaking in, and the slide assembly started out somewhat stiff, but as I shot the gun, it got much smoother.

Hakaman, lots of good luck I throw your way with your new Kahr! I shot two rental Kahr's and both jammed on me (9mm & 40 cal) but the owner got the same result.

Smooooooth as glass! So far.

How does it perform on targets?
One thing I wish I had on my PPS was the night sights, not that I am in the habit of getting into late night gunfights, but it would be nice to have the GitD sights on my home defense pistol. Those look easy to see, I assume they are the kind that has to be charged up, how long are they good for after sitting in the light?

The experience I have with the night sights is just down stairs with the lights out (hope that's the only time I'll have to use them). Yes, I have to charge them up before I use them, like we use to do with watch dials, then they work very well in pitch black darkness. A nice compliment to a quality firearm. This gun is not a target gun by any means, as I sprayed around the target quite a bit, but I did not expect it to be. I must say so far, it is all I have expected.
Haka

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:18 pm

A carry gun is not meant to shoot targets, the only accuracy you need as my mentor always said, Two minutes of felon is good enough. They are a point and shoot gun, the sights on my P3AT are rudimentary at best, but you can boot the gull mag into an 11 x 17 area easily in rapid fire mode and that about is COM and if it would not stop it would really hinder a BG's performance.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:52 pm

A carry gun is not meant to shoot targets, the only accuracy you need as my mentor always said, Two minutes of felon is good enough

That's how I feel OM, I didn't buy it for target shooting, I bought it for summer carry(and winter as well). I the target is 20ft away I am sure going to hit COM. Filling the bullseye of a target, I most likely can't. I pumped 100rds thru it today and she purred like a kitten, but can bite like a dog. BTW, what does "two minutes of felon" mean?

Hak