GunTalk-Online.com

First of all, thanks to all that post here! I've had several questions answered about my new MK III with out ever having to ask them! Right now, the question most pressing for me is Red dot sight Vs. holo sight or open sights. I'm having a little trouble hitting my mark with the open sights shooting low and to the left mostly. Should I just bite the bullet and purchase one of these sights? I'd like to hear what ya have to say!

Thanks again!

J.R.

welcome to the forum.
if we can't help you, we'll leave you so confused, you won't be sure

first, can you relate some "shooting experience" ?
is your MK3 your first "firearm" ? RimFire? Pistol?
can you shoot another firearm to your satisfaction?
Rimfire / CtrFire -vs- Hand/Long Gun ?

it could be as simple as your stance, grip, trigger-finger, squeeze... etc.

take a look at: http://www.BullsEyePistol.com/
it has a LOT of excellent references for Pistol-shooting.
every topic down the middle of the page could be helpful.

The (upper right) USAMU Pistol Guide covers the basics very well.
good luck...

Thanks for your response...

I just started shooting again after a long drought. (didn't have a place to go). The Mk III is my first rimfire pistol. My carry pistol is a Glock 23. I don't have rifle. I seem to be in the same postion with it as well, mostly low and to the left. Thanks for the links...I'll check them out and see what I can apply the next time out to the range. I was just wondering if maybe a red dot or holo sight might help. Should have realized it was probably operator error!

JR

depending on the facility at your range,
try some close-shots with your MK3 & Glock
and support your arms as best you can on a Rug/Rag
and see if you can determine if your sights are "off".
(with a rifle, we could bore-sight... but not pistols).

-or- just watch for someone that is shooting well...
and ask them to shoot a few rounds with yours...
it's amazing how a mis-behaving firearm will suddenly
respond in the hands of another !!

What ammo are you using? Std-Velocity? Hi-stuff ?
what distance are you shooting? 5, 15, 25, 50 yds ?
take care.

First welcome to Guntalk-online! We're happy to have you as a member.

Next on to your question. Typically a shooter who is interfacing with his weapon, by shooting it, imparts some error into the weapon by physical means. Basically, humans cannot keep these shooting machines still. The problem is to minimize the amount of error that a shooter imparts onto his/her firearm while shooting and provide for consistent shot placement. Typically certain errors cause a pistol to move in a given direction from the aiming point. These errors are charted in a round circular chart like the one below.



When I discuss shooter induced errors I use the clock system. This system is based on the face of an analog clock which everybody can recognize from a very young age.

The error you described is shots hitting in the region of seven to nine o'clock. This is an area that new shooter's shot hits find a lot. It is also known as the "jerk" zone. This area is in the lower left quadrant of the circular clock face. It is caused by either the shooter tightening the fingers of the gripping hand, or by rapidly retracting the index finger on the trigger face. This sudden motion causes the barrel to track downward and to the left in the few milliseconds before cartridge detonation. The problem is the shooter often will not see this movement due to improper sighting focus or the recoil movement of the weapon hides it. A novice shooter typically aligns the sights and then starts looking toward the target, but by looking at the target, cannot see the finer details of the sights and their alignment. So when the sights move, any error goes undetected by the shooter. This shooter will swear that the sights did not move, even though they did as evidenced by the bullet hit in the target.

This phenomenon is even more difficult to detect with iron sights. A very small misalignment in the front and rear blades will go virtually unnoticed by the novice shooter, even a seasoned shooter can have difficulty seeing alignment errors of the front and rear iron blades.

A red dot sight will show the movement by the red light dot tracking off in the direction of the area where the shot hits on the target. But it still takes a trained eye to see all of this in the instant before the shot breaks. It is easier to see an error with an optical sight and harder with iron sights.

Now how to correct this error, this will take lots of practice. No matter how steady your hold is, if the pistol is disturbed before the bullet exits the barrel, the shot will be errant from the desired aiming point. The correction comes from conscious trigger control. Trigger control is defined as squeezing the trigger at a consistent rate as to allow the pistol to fire without disturbing the sight alignment through jerking or anticipation of recoil.

If a pistol fires at two pounds of trigger pressure applied, then when a shooter applies a steady 1/3 lb rate per second of pressure the pistol will have fired at the six second mark from the moment he began applying the pressure to the trigger. The idea is for good trigger control is when a shooter places a certain amount of "initial pressure" onto the trigger and then applies the slower constant pressure on top of that initial pressure until the weapon fires. For example, a shooter initially grips the pistol and instantly applies about 1 and 1/2 lbs of initial pressure on the trigger and holds it. Now as he adds the gradual 1/3 lb pressure per second the pistol will fire in approximately one to one and a half seconds from the application of initial pressure. But no one can consistently apply an exact amount of initial pressure every time, so there will always be a little bit of play. This play is just enough for the shooter to not know the exact time that the pistol will fire and reduces the chance of anticipation or flinching disturbing the sight alignment.

Now the practice part. A shooter must learn how much pressure he or she can safely apply to prevent the pistol from discharging but enough to take up most of the pressure needed to fire the pistol. Then as the shooter applies the smaller constant pressure the pistol will fire without the shooter knowing the precise instant it will fire. In the time that the shooter is applying the slower constant pressure he is concentrating on the sight alignment not the detonation. The pistol fires and the shot will hit in the direction of where the sights were placed on the target.

However, a new shooter has a wider wobble zone over a more experienced shooter. The new shooter's sights tend to drift across and around the target. Because the novice's hold is not as steady, it can cause a newer shooter to slap at the trigger at the instant he sees the sights track across the target and into his perfect aiming position. By doing this the shooter imparts error into the pistol and the shot goes into the target at the seven o'clock area.

Practice shooting the pistol using the initial pressure technique. Do not attempt to make the pistol fire - let it fire. Once it does, then evaluate where the sights were at that instant, and that should be where the shot hole is located on the target face. As time goes on, the hold will become more steady and the shot group will shrink to very near the center of the target. One good thing about the human mind and the eye, it will freeze the image of when the sights jumped. That is, your mind will remember where the sights were positioned at the instant the gun recoiled, helping to reveal where a properly executed shot went into the target. If the shot is not were the sights were aligned at the moment they jumped, then the shooter must have induced an error onto the pistol and caused the shot to move in the direction of the error on the target face.

If you wish to purchase a dot sight to help see your errors better - then go ahead. Or you can use the irons and get a friend to single load your pistol for you. Every now and then your friend should slip you an empty pistol. If the sights move violently when the hammer drops, then you've made them move by adding in an error. When I do this for new shooters, I usually ask them where did the sights move? If they cannot answer, then they were either focusing on the target, or closing their eyes at the instant the gun would fire. Neither of these conditions are good for consistent shot placement.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

Bullseye's post is a good read. I'd add that you should use the same brand and type of ammo while working on this. Changing ammo brands and types can alter the shot placement, especially noticeable at 15 yards and beyond.

You can adjust the sights, but I do not until I get consistent groupings. I usually shoot three rounds and check for consistent placement and do not adjust until I get the rounds consistent.

I have trouble seeing the front sights on some pistols. Somehow getting the darn thing to stay in focus with bifocals can drive me nuts. I've put a dab of paint on the front sight blade for those.

Red dots are quite a help for those of us with old eyes. The dot tends to amplify the wobble and one mistake I've seen is trying to hold the dot perfectly still. You can't and trying can make it worse. Almost any red dot will work well. I have a 30mm BSA and a Bushnell Trophy. The Bushnell is a better sight. It's easier to see the dot on bright days. Millet red dots are good. By reputation and my one time shooting with one, the accudot is excellent.

+1 on Greener's comments...
and +3 for another excellent description by Bullseye...
that's "sticky" material... for the Ref-Archive!
ya'll have a good day.

BE: would it be worth-the-time/effort to make that "analysis chart"
a larger image-file, to download/print. Adding some reminder
annotation: ie. Date/ Distance/ Pistol/ ammo... to look for improvement.
Would your 'graphics manager' consider the embellishments?
We've seen it before, but you have a talent for improving "useful things"
to make them 'informative/educational'... (we) thank you.

I think that he already has it bigger. I printed one out that he had posted over at Rimfire Central. I would love to see it here though as an 8 1/2x11 sheet for printing out to take to the range though.

Thanks for all of your responses! It will be a couple of weeks before I can get back to the range to try to improve! I have been shooting at 25 yards for the most part...maybe I should try 15 until I get this pinned down? I had been using the RGB's but I quit after I saw first hand how dirty those are....went to the FED bulk stuff and also have some CCI mini mags. Maybe I'll use those up first. I'll pay close attention to the stance, trigger pull, etc. I think for now I'll hold off on the red dot... see if I can get this front sight to focus in for me. When I get back from the range I will post and let ya know how it went.

Thanks to all,
JR

Also, let us not forget those who lost there lives six years ago today.
May we never forget.....

First of all, listen to everybody else, then listen to me.

I found my standard sight to be very accurate, so those guys are probably going to be right. Stance or something like that.

I'd also go to some place like Wal-Mart and pick up their cheap LASER bore sight. About $30, showed me my sights were right on the money. The only thing was, I can't adjust them for very close distances, it bottoms out

So unless somebody messed with your sights, say at the store or something, I'd trust them before I would say there's something wrong with them.

Then, about other sights....

Red-Dot types are pretty nice. But if my personal opinion, based on experience, you need to look and look and look some more, until you find one that works good.

My problem was I kept finding scopes with double images. Which I say is a characteristic of their manufacture. Cheaper scopes will have it more so than more expensive scopes, because they don't spend the time/money to adjust it out.

I went through several scopes before I found one I could use. (4 Bushnell's, which several people said to get).

So, either make sure you can take/send it back, or test it in the store. Hold it at arms length, approximate distance it would be on your gun, and look though it, actually look for the double image. Sometimes it will jump out at you, sometimes it won't show up until later.

Same with the holo sights too. May take some time for your eyes to adjust to using it, so it might look funky, and you can't use it, until you figure out how to use it.

Oh, if you get a Red-Dot scope, then look into the types that have both red and green "dots" in them. The green is good for low light conditions, not as harsh as the red.

Also, if you're using that LASER bore sight, then it's easier to adjust the red LASER dot, against the green "red-dot" sight. If you have red on red, it's hard to see what's what.


Oh, I did find them a bit hard to use (built in sights). The sight picture in the book didn't quite match up to what I was actually seeing, at least not at close distances.

It wasn't about the front "dot" fitting nicely inside of that rear "V-Grove", so much as it was the top of the black block on the front sight, lining up with the top of the V-Grove. So it looked like a straight line across the top of the sight picture.

But, that could be just my sights too, not everybody's. And it was very close to the picture in the book, just a little different.

But that LASER bore sight will show you exactly where the sights should be looking. (to a certain degree now....)

I used to bore sight, and took out the front Hi-Viz plastic, and the LASER dot was right in that empty space, nicely filling that empty round hole. It was right on the money. (of course you have to adjust for distance, but a short ranges, there's not much to adjust)

That's just my two cents worth. But I'd figure on the built in sights being right, and you're doing something else.


Yeah, I'd stick to 15 yards or so, at least until you get good grouping. You need a base line first.

And, sadly, there are those of us trying hard to forget what happened 6 years ago.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6850019?source=rss

I like the idea of a laser bore sight. Gives you confidence that the sights are on. I'd start shorter than 15 yards and move to progressively longer distances as your groups improve.

I do have the target charts on a full 8.5 x 11 sized image. I'll find a spot to put them in the forum. I just reduced this one to make it fit into my post without extending the page any more than I did with the write up. I'll look into adding in some more useful information on the white space. One thing I can think of is an adjustment chart for different manufacturers pistol sights.

R,
Bullseye

jroach wrote:First of all, thanks to all that post here! I've had several questions answered about my new MK III with out ever having to ask them! Right now, the question most pressing for me is Red dot sight Vs. holo sight or open sights. I'm having a little trouble hitting my mark with the open sights shooting low and to the left mostly. Should I just bite the bullet and purchase one of these sights? I'd like to hear what ya have to say!

Thanks again!

J.R.

First of all, let me join the rest in welcoming you to the group.

You talk of a MK III but I am unsure which MK III it is... If it is the Hunter with the "Hi-Vis" sights I understand your problem with being able to align them.. I ended up replacing them on my Hunter with standard open sights and had much better luck.

That being said, It is my opinion that Bullseye has the right idea and your biggest problem is trigger control and possibly stance.
A lot of dry firing paying particular attention to the sights when the hammer falls, would be the next step. You should be able to tell exactly where the front sight was in relationship with the rear sight, when the hammer falls. See if it isn't dipping to the left!
As for your stance, take your stance, close your eyes and bring the gun to bear an the target. Open your eyes and see where you are actually pointing. Adjust your stance so the you are on target each time you open your eyes.

As to a Red Dot, that will not make up for poor trigger control.. Before you spend a lot of money on one I recommend getting an inexpensive scope like the BSA. ( I got one on e-bay for about $30) and it works great. Try that first before spending money on something you do not like.

Relax and enjoy the sport. Shoot for groups. Once you consistently shoot groups in one place, adjust the sights to move that group to the center of the target.

jroach,
Glad you asked the question so all this info could flow. I learn plenty here each and every time I visit.
Like you, I hadn't had much experience with my MKII. My aging eyes begged for some help. I happened to have had an opportunity to spend a day with a buddy's MKII with red dot and it was "game over" for me.
With the input of some here I purchased the Millet Red Dot SP-1.
It's so great I now have a MKIII and a MKII identically equipped.

Once you determine the site for you...be judicious on vendor selection as prices can vary substantially.

Enjoy the MKIII

SD

I agree with Bud, sometimes I get caught up in my own words and forget to write some of the important points in a posting. Here's a link to a more detailed post I wrote on stance a while back. http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4

Here's one on sight picture. http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3

Another good point he made (sometimes I overlook the obvious) is if you have the Hi-Vis style sights on your Mark III - those are the ones with a plastic light tube in the front sight. They can make your pistol a little less accurate for target shooting but provide fast sight acquisition for hunting.

Way back when, when I was first learning to shoot competitive pistol, one day I had a epiphany. I kept wondering why whenever I had an early shot, while the target was turned away, the bullet would fly 25 yards downrange and strike the 3/4" piece of angle iron facing me. Yet, while shooting a pair of strings I'd have a shot group spread all around the target. Why could I consistently hit that 3/4" piece of metal but not get the same amount of shot spread variation on the target? Then it dawned on me, I wasn't concentrating on firing the shot - it was an accident. The shot was always a surprise caused by too much initial pressure! Plus, I was concentrating exclusively on the sights I placed on that metal frame in anticipation of it turning and exposing the black ball of the target face. Boom - Dink! Very embarrassing when it happens, but I learned something from it. Just concentrate on the sights, follow the proper sequence for loading the trigger with initial pressure, and let the gun fire - Don't make it fire.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye