.22LR Question.

Curmudgeon · Post by **Curmudgeon** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:30 pm

I like the clean target hole punched out with a wad-cutter. Why don't we have them in .22LR? These hollow points for targets are silly? Right

Post by **Bullseye** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:00 pm

There are a few independent designers that have created tools to flatten the nose of a .22 bullet to make wadcutter like holes. Unfortunately these tools are rather expensive for what they deliver and have not caught on in the general shooting community. Most just use a scoring plug or a set of templates to determine the actual bullet hole scoring value in paper targets. The Paco Kelly Accurizer is one of these tools. However, I'm not sure that he even sells these shaping tools anymore.

Another designer is a man name Waltz and he offers a .22 bullet sizing die similar to Paco's. The main difference is the Waltz die uses a reloading press to shape the bullets and Paco Kelly's uses a mallet and plunger. Waltz wants $175 for his die with one plunger style. At that price, I can only figure that he really doesn't want to sell many of these units.

R,
Bullseye

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:04 pm

Paco's tools...

http://www.LeverGuns.com/store/acurizer.htm
http://www.GunBlast.com/Paco.htm
http://www.GunBlast.com/Paco_Scorpn.htm

and...
http://www.eabco.com/holoptr.html

The 'Paco Hand Tool'...
a little out-a-focus, but my other hand was busy holding the camera...

recumbent · Post by **recumbent** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:52 am

I have the Waltz die it comes with 2 pins and a shell holder, pins you get are one for hollow point and the other makes the bullet look just like an Eley EPS nose.

The WORK great, it has improved the accuracy in my CZs and my Cooper TRP3 rifles.

I have not tried it yet in a Ruger pistol.

You use a reloading press to size the bullets, this makes them consistent from one bullet to the next. You can not get this kind of consistancy with the Paco tool. I just can't bring myself to smack a loaded round in the Paco tool with a hammer or mallet.

I paid $135 for mine.

eps nose

hollow point nose

Both

Die & shell holder (Very high quality)

Curmudgeon · Post by **Curmudgeon** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:23 pm

I'm surprised that no manufacture has picked up on the wad cutter need here. I think more .22LR's are expended at plinking and targets that any actual hunting.

They must have a reason, but I don't know what it is.

Post by **Bullseye** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:01 am

Recumbent is right, the Waltz .22 bullet sizing die does come with two plunger pin styles. That's what I get for trying to reply by memory. I went back and checked my Guntalk e-mail log and found one I received from Neil Waltz. He sent it earlier this year, along with some specs and pictures of his dies. Another Guntalk member asked me to take a look at his (Waltz) dies because of a topic the member had started on another forum. I sent him this reply-

Doug,

A few years ago someone asked me what my thoughts were on the Paco Kelly Accurizer on Rugerforum.com. I told them that I didn't like the idea of hitting rimfire bullets with a hammer and plunger and that I'd design a set of reloading style dies to do the same job. Apparently someone took up on that idea and created this tool. The only concerns I'd have is how much friction is created on the case, how much force does it take to reshape the bullet nose, and could these cause the cartridge rim to crush? Looks like the die set uses a full-length die, but one that mainly supports just the bullet and partially the case would perform the same function. Overall uniform dimensioned bullets would enhance accuracy since consistency is the key to marksmanship.

R,
Bullseye

I will say that I am not a proponent of this style of bullet shaping. Basically you have a loaded rimfire cartridge sitting in what is essentially a short barreled chamber. To date, no one has been injured by this type of set-up, but I do see a potential for an AD.

R,
Bullseye

recumbent · Post by **recumbent** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:01 am

I have not shot any sized ammo in a semi auto. Just bolt action rifles and a revolver. They work well in those and improve accuracy some.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:56 am

I will say that I am not a proponent of this style of bullet shaping. Basically you have a loaded rimfire cartridge sitting in what is essentially a short barreled chamber. To date, no one has been injured by this type of set-up, but I do see a potential for an AD.

R,
Bullseye

I think the same way and do not try to alter loaded ammo. I for sure will not be the first statistic in that area. I did not get to this age by doing stupid things, have one some slightly stupid things in my old dirt bike days but managed to live through that without having any of my body parts altered by force.

Post by **Bullseye** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:37 pm

I got to agree with you there Len. I definitely survived my youth in spite of myself. Back then, there were many days where naive stupidity overrode common sense.

R,
Bullseye

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:48 pm

Bullseye wrote:I got to agree with you there Len. I definitely survived my youth in spite of myself. Back then, there were many days where naive stupidity overrode common sense.

R,
Bullseye

Stupidity will over ride common sense about 99 times out of 100. Youth give you the false confidence of INVINCIBLE

courage or stupidity? it is difficult to define the line between them as it is very fine..

Post by **Bullseye** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:06 pm

Is it courageously stupid, or stupidly courageous?

Either way, somehow I managed to get through it will all my digits intact.

R,
Bullseye

greener · Post by **greener** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:26 pm

Bullseye wrote:Recumbent is right, the Waltz .22 bullet sizing die does come with two plunger pin styles. That's what I get for trying to reply by memory. I went back and checked my Guntalk e-mail log and found one I received from Neil Waltz. He sent it earlier this year, along with some specs and pictures of his dies. Another Guntalk member asked me to take a look at his (Waltz) dies because of a topic the member had started on another forum. I sent him this reply-

Doug,

A few years ago someone asked me what my thoughts were on the Paco Kelly Accurizer on Rugerforum.com. I told them that I didn't like the idea of hitting rimfire bullets with a hammer and plunger and that I'd design a set of reloading style dies to do the same job. Apparently someone took up on that idea and created this tool. The only concerns I'd have is how much friction is created on the case, how much force does it take to reshape the bullet nose, and could these cause the cartridge rim to crush? Looks like the die set uses a full-length die, but one that mainly supports just the bullet and partially the case would perform the same function. Overall uniform dimensioned bullets would enhance accuracy since consistency is the key to marksmanship.

R,
Bullseye
I will say that I am not a proponent of this style of bullet shaping. Basically you have a loaded rimfire cartridge sitting in what is essentially a short barreled chamber. To date, no one has been injured by this type of set-up, but I do see a potential for an AD.

R,
Bullseye

I had similar thoughts about safety when I saw the pictures. Probably not high probability because the die system doesn't give it a sharp, hard blow. The probability of setting a primer off isn't high, but then neither is getting hit by lightening and I've experienced that probability. It just takes one hit to ruin your day.

Resizing the bullet looks like it may make the rounds more consistent, but it doesn't do anything to make the powder charge consistent, the bullet weight consistent or the firing of the primer more consistent. Unless you start with the expensive target-grade ammo, it looks like the gains from resizing would be lost in the variability from the round production.

recumbent · Post by **recumbent** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:10 pm

The lead bullets are soft, the rim and head of the case is supported by the shell holder. When sizing you are expanding the bullet so they are all the same diameter.

It takes very little pressure to size a 22LR. You are NOT full length case sizing like you are when your reloading centerfire ammunition.

I have done a few thousand rounds and fell completely safe in using the die.

greener · Post by **greener** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:55 pm

The shell holder supports the casing for lateral movement, that is holds it vertical for the die. The base will still get all downward force. From the looks of the bullets, that doesn't appear to be much, because the bullet doesn't seem to be seated any farther down.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:59 am

greener wrote:The shell holder supports the casing for lateral movement, that is holds it vertical for the die. The base will still get all downward force. From the looks of the bullets, that doesn't appear to be much, because the bullet doesn't seem to be seated any farther down.

I will still pass on that one, did not get this old without some luck and don't want to use up whatever is left. Don't think the bullet or the gun will make me shoot that much better as most guns and bullets will consistently outshoot the shooter, especially the older ones.