Hi Bullseye and Crew,
My poor neglected 41 has been closed up in the box for several months after baby #2 arrived, but I've found a new range close by where I can practice at night.
I had been having some problems with feeding match ammunition, but it seems that a 6.5# wolff spring was the cure.
The only other peculiarity I've seen, which I think is worth asking about, is that I noticed my magazines are filled up with crescent shaped lead cuttings. They look like a small fingernail clipping, of lead. I've noticed that my 41 tends to get lead peened onto the faces where the slide and chamber close, but I hadn't noticed the cuttings until now.
I'm going to try cycling some dummy rounds through it tonight to figure out where the cuttings are coming from, but because so many of them wind up getting underneath the follower in the magazines, I suspect the front magazine lip is peeling them off, although there's nothing obvious on the metal there. The lower tip of the feed ramp is also clean.
Any recommendations on what to check, and whether to care about it?
Thanks!
41 crescent shaped lead cuttings
Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators
Sounds like the case rim is not sliding under the extractor hook correctly. This timing error will cause the nose of the bullet to be forced upwards during the charging cycle and will shave a little off of the bullet as it is seated in the chamber. Check your extractor channel in the bolt and the extractor plunger and spring to ensure that no powder or residue has built up in there restricting the extractor's movement. A good detailed cleaning of the bolt may fix the problem. Use the slide stripping procedure here to take the bolt and extractor out of the slide. http://www.guntalk-online.com/Model41ma ... slidestrip
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
I was able to do a little testing this morning, and I found a few things that seem suspicious, but without another pistol for comparison, I'm not sure which might be red herrings.
On my pistol, when the bolt is closing and the extractor is entering the channel, the bottom of the extractor contacts the bottom of the extractor channel. There is enough play in the slide that the extractor rides up onto the bottom surface of the channel. It's a very tiny amount of motion, but it causes the gap between the top of the slide and the underside of the rear section of the barrel to be slightly uneven. I had to use a feeler gauge but its there.
The next thing I noticed, while cycling rounds without firing them, is that my pistol will not eject an unfired round. The rim of the unejected round is about even with the front edge of the ejector/slide stop, so I'm guessing the extractor is just letting go too soon. I'm assuming a properly functioning 41 will eject an unfired round though, right?
The last detail is as you predicted. I marked the top of each round with a pen, and as I cycled them, the top of each bullet got a flat spot about 2mm wide. The last round in the magazine did not show the marking.
I performed the extractor test on your site a while back, and mine passed, but I noticed today that if I shook a little more aggressively, the round would fall out.
I think I should try the extractor adjustment procedure, but before I do anything, I wanted to check to see whether the positioning of my extractor in the channel is unusual. Let me know if my description is not clear and I'll try and get a photo.
Thanks bullseye!
On my pistol, when the bolt is closing and the extractor is entering the channel, the bottom of the extractor contacts the bottom of the extractor channel. There is enough play in the slide that the extractor rides up onto the bottom surface of the channel. It's a very tiny amount of motion, but it causes the gap between the top of the slide and the underside of the rear section of the barrel to be slightly uneven. I had to use a feeler gauge but its there.
The next thing I noticed, while cycling rounds without firing them, is that my pistol will not eject an unfired round. The rim of the unejected round is about even with the front edge of the ejector/slide stop, so I'm guessing the extractor is just letting go too soon. I'm assuming a properly functioning 41 will eject an unfired round though, right?
The last detail is as you predicted. I marked the top of each round with a pen, and as I cycled them, the top of each bullet got a flat spot about 2mm wide. The last round in the magazine did not show the marking.
I performed the extractor test on your site a while back, and mine passed, but I noticed today that if I shook a little more aggressively, the round would fall out.
I think I should try the extractor adjustment procedure, but before I do anything, I wanted to check to see whether the positioning of my extractor in the channel is unusual. Let me know if my description is not clear and I'll try and get a photo.
Thanks bullseye!
GooseYArd, I'm not going to be much help in that I have a Bully barrel and it has almost a 16th" gap on the top and zero on the bottom as it is made open there. You can see what I mean at Ray's site www.bullybarrels.com he has drawing/dimensions. Regards
Alright! Progress!
I tried out the extractor adjustment from the site, and it worked exactly as advertised. Thanks Bullseye!!
My concern about the positioning of the extractor in its channel is relieved. While I had the extractor out, I checked it for peening where it would have collided with the barrel face. The bluing was worn off but it looked like it was just some rubbing. It looks like the extractor is a punched part, and I think the rubbing was due to some rough edges on the underside of the part, which I filed smooth.
After the extractor was fixed, something really odd started to happen.
While cycling my dummy rounds, the slide would hang up once the neck of the round was about 2mm out of the chamber. If I pulled the slide back more sharply, the round would pop out of the extractor, leaving only the lead in the chamber.
I figured that what had to be happening was that the rim of the case had to be hitting the front edge of the bolt stop. If you've looked at the bolt stop, it's got a rebate cut into the top edge of it. The ledge where the rebate ends serves as an ejector. Here's my fuzzy picture:
To get a better look at what was happening, I took the grips off the pistol. Lo and behold- the problem disappeared. One thing that confused me a little bit is that there is a lot of play in the bolt release lever. Initially I was worried that maybe the round was hitting the edge of the bolt stop/ejector and pushing it out of the way, but because of the way the bolt is designed, that can't really happen.
What did happen, however, is that my Herrett's Nationals left hand side grip panel, which doesn't have the notch cut out for the bolt release lever like the stock grips. There's a recess cut into the back side of the panel to fit over the lever, but the grip panel presses against the bolt release. There's enough play in the bolt release lever that if you hold it in as you draw back the slide, the rebated edge of the bolt stop hits the rim of the round. That works ok for an empty case (it just gets ejected earlier than it should), but if you're cycling dummy rounds, the round gets popped out of the extractor, and the next round jams. Before the extractor was fixed, the round would just pop out early, but after tightening it up, the slide had to stop. I put the stock grips back on, and now it feeds like a champ.
I don't know how this led to the lead shavings, yet, but the damage to the lead on the rounds I cycled seems to have gone away. Now I'm itching to get out to the range to see how it shoots. Will keep you posted!
I tried out the extractor adjustment from the site, and it worked exactly as advertised. Thanks Bullseye!!
My concern about the positioning of the extractor in its channel is relieved. While I had the extractor out, I checked it for peening where it would have collided with the barrel face. The bluing was worn off but it looked like it was just some rubbing. It looks like the extractor is a punched part, and I think the rubbing was due to some rough edges on the underside of the part, which I filed smooth.
After the extractor was fixed, something really odd started to happen.
While cycling my dummy rounds, the slide would hang up once the neck of the round was about 2mm out of the chamber. If I pulled the slide back more sharply, the round would pop out of the extractor, leaving only the lead in the chamber.
I figured that what had to be happening was that the rim of the case had to be hitting the front edge of the bolt stop. If you've looked at the bolt stop, it's got a rebate cut into the top edge of it. The ledge where the rebate ends serves as an ejector. Here's my fuzzy picture:
To get a better look at what was happening, I took the grips off the pistol. Lo and behold- the problem disappeared. One thing that confused me a little bit is that there is a lot of play in the bolt release lever. Initially I was worried that maybe the round was hitting the edge of the bolt stop/ejector and pushing it out of the way, but because of the way the bolt is designed, that can't really happen.
What did happen, however, is that my Herrett's Nationals left hand side grip panel, which doesn't have the notch cut out for the bolt release lever like the stock grips. There's a recess cut into the back side of the panel to fit over the lever, but the grip panel presses against the bolt release. There's enough play in the bolt release lever that if you hold it in as you draw back the slide, the rebated edge of the bolt stop hits the rim of the round. That works ok for an empty case (it just gets ejected earlier than it should), but if you're cycling dummy rounds, the round gets popped out of the extractor, and the next round jams. Before the extractor was fixed, the round would just pop out early, but after tightening it up, the slide had to stop. I put the stock grips back on, and now it feeds like a champ.
I don't know how this led to the lead shavings, yet, but the damage to the lead on the rounds I cycled seems to have gone away. Now I'm itching to get out to the range to see how it shoots. Will keep you posted!
It is good that you found a source of the problem. The extractor adjustment procedure may be the reason why you're not shaving off the top of the bullet anymore. Next you could relieve/modify the Herrett grip panel for the bolt release lever and you should be able to use those grips again.
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye
Well Bullseye, you were exactly right, as usual 
My supposed fix quit working after the next time I disassembled and reassembled it.
I misunderstood your description of the timing problem, then after a few minutes of cycling rounds through it, I now understand what you mean about the timing error. The rim of the case starts riding up the angled section of the magazine lips, but the rim of the case stops moving upward too soon, and doesn't seat properly into the circular recess in the bolt until the bullet hits the chamber and gets damaged.
Tonight I'm going to give everything a good scrubbing and then watch the action working again. I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!!
My supposed fix quit working after the next time I disassembled and reassembled it.
I misunderstood your description of the timing problem, then after a few minutes of cycling rounds through it, I now understand what you mean about the timing error. The rim of the case starts riding up the angled section of the magazine lips, but the rim of the case stops moving upward too soon, and doesn't seat properly into the circular recess in the bolt until the bullet hits the chamber and gets damaged.
Tonight I'm going to give everything a good scrubbing and then watch the action working again. I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!!
Goose,
If you suspect the bolt face is causing the problem and not the extractor, you can get a new one from Gil Hebard's for around $60. The bolt is easy to replace in the slide. But I would inspect the extractor, extractor plunger, extractor plunger spring, and the extractor channel in the slide very carefully before ordering a bolt. If peening of the bolt face and slide are present then it is possible that the extractor channel groove has decreased size near the end, chafing the extractor hook and hindering its operation.
Is the case rim getting stuck when it contacts the extractor? The extractor itself is a $20 part.
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
If you suspect the bolt face is causing the problem and not the extractor, you can get a new one from Gil Hebard's for around $60. The bolt is easy to replace in the slide. But I would inspect the extractor, extractor plunger, extractor plunger spring, and the extractor channel in the slide very carefully before ordering a bolt. If peening of the bolt face and slide are present then it is possible that the extractor channel groove has decreased size near the end, chafing the extractor hook and hindering its operation.
Is the case rim getting stuck when it contacts the extractor? The extractor itself is a $20 part.
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
Hey Bullseye,
I seem to have eliminated the bullet-shaving- unfortunately I wasn't very scientific about it so I'm not sure which of the things I did solved it.
My uncle (who also shoots a 41) was over, and I mentioned to him the problem I'd been having. His face lit up, he asked me a couple of questions, then asked me if I'd tried putting in the extra power firing pin spring that comes with the Wolff kit you suggested. He said that when his bolt got carbon built up inside, the firing pin would sometimes not retract fully until the bolt closed, and that the next round would stop before the case rim had moved fully up and into the bolt recess.
Looking at my bolt face, I noticed a small burr on the bottom edge of the firing pin hole. Very small but I could feel it with an empty case as I slid it in and out of the bolt face. I used a tiny file to smooth that down.
The firing pin itself didn't seem to be getting stuck, but there was some grit accumulated in there so I cleaned it thoroughly. I also put the wolf firing pin spring in there- it's definitely a more powerful spring, and maybe an 1/8" longer than stock.
With those changes, and the Bullseye extractor treatment, the pistol is now feeding like a charm, and I don't see any damage to the rounds, other than a bit of a scuff on the top side of the brass just behind the bullet.
I'm not sure the pin was actually the culprit, but I had been curious about what the point of including those extra firing pin springs was until my uncle mentioned his problem. Have you seen this condition on a 41?
I seem to have eliminated the bullet-shaving- unfortunately I wasn't very scientific about it so I'm not sure which of the things I did solved it.
My uncle (who also shoots a 41) was over, and I mentioned to him the problem I'd been having. His face lit up, he asked me a couple of questions, then asked me if I'd tried putting in the extra power firing pin spring that comes with the Wolff kit you suggested. He said that when his bolt got carbon built up inside, the firing pin would sometimes not retract fully until the bolt closed, and that the next round would stop before the case rim had moved fully up and into the bolt recess.
Looking at my bolt face, I noticed a small burr on the bottom edge of the firing pin hole. Very small but I could feel it with an empty case as I slid it in and out of the bolt face. I used a tiny file to smooth that down.
The firing pin itself didn't seem to be getting stuck, but there was some grit accumulated in there so I cleaned it thoroughly. I also put the wolf firing pin spring in there- it's definitely a more powerful spring, and maybe an 1/8" longer than stock.
With those changes, and the Bullseye extractor treatment, the pistol is now feeding like a charm, and I don't see any damage to the rounds, other than a bit of a scuff on the top side of the brass just behind the bullet.
I'm not sure the pin was actually the culprit, but I had been curious about what the point of including those extra firing pin springs was until my uncle mentioned his problem. Have you seen this condition on a 41?
If you found a burr on the bolt face then that could have been the source of the timing problem. It only takes a microsecond of delay to cause a hang up at normal operating speed. If you could feel the burr then it was affecting the operation. Plus, a burr in that position could have forced a bullet to nose up into the chamber and get a lead shaving treatment as the slide closed. Did you remove the firing pin and clean out the pin hole? There could be some accumulated residue in there and that can cause a sticky firing pin.
The extractor tightening procedure is one that a famous M-41 pistolsmith taught me a long time ago. It solves many of the extraction problems that this pistol characteristically suffers. A few thousandths of an inch make a big difference with that extractor hook.
I'm happy to hear that you've got your pistol up and running. It should give you many years of satisfaction now.
R,
Bullseye
The extractor tightening procedure is one that a famous M-41 pistolsmith taught me a long time ago. It solves many of the extraction problems that this pistol characteristically suffers. A few thousandths of an inch make a big difference with that extractor hook.
I'm happy to hear that you've got your pistol up and running. It should give you many years of satisfaction now.
R,
Bullseye