This has got to have been covered here many times. I'm wondering in what order should I be considering improvements to the trigger/action of a Mark II era 22/45, 6 7/8", Competition Target (that I use for combat style practice and maybe some matches).
I installed a VQ sear about 3 years ago and probably have 20,000 rounds of Wally's finest Fed bulk through it by now.
The trigger pull has two distinct stages at this point. The first stage quickly finds some slightly grungy resistance and then lightens (of falls) towards the beginning of the second stage. This initial resistance and then lightness almost gives the subjective feeling of having a "set" trigger. It's very pronounced.
The final stage has a greater resistance - heavier than I'd like here - and then a slightly unexpected, but also fairly mushy final release.
The first phase's resistance-lightness-to set point, is absent if I back off the trigger at this point and then reestablish my finger pressure. But if, in the meantime, I pull the bolt back a second time, the trigger feel of the first stage returns before it gets to the 'second stage, and is ready to release.
In looking over some threads in the Technical section of GunTalk, I see that either a Clark Hammer Bushing, or a VQ Trigger are often recommended as quality drop in parts. Also have noticed that a Clark Hammer might be recommended.
I mightl have to wait until I find out what an action job is going to finally cost on my match gun that I recently sent away. I'd very much like to improve this practice gun's innards on my own and wonder what comes to mind that might be next in order to consider buying and dropping-in, or fiddling with now.
Can someone help guide me to DIY Action Work on a 22/45?
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FourCornerm'n
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blue68f100
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From what you describe I would be checking on play in the trigger group. Remove the barrel and see how much side to side play you have in the hammer. If it moves more than an 1/8" you will get some benefit from the Clark Bushing. Remember this removes the Mag disc but removes most all creep from the trigger.
David
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
My first suggestion is to bore out the trigger plunger hole a little bit. VQ is doing that to their target triggers now. That frees up the trigger return plunger from any powder residue and creates a smoother overall pull. You only need to go up one drill size and take care to not drill the hole any deeper.
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye
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FourCornerm'n
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Thank you.
Took the gun down earlier this evening. Tried, without advice I woulda like to have had, to polish some surfaces.
There is some play in the hammer, not an eighth of an inch, but, visually, it opens a dark seam down at the hammer pivot pin. It doesn't pass the 1/8th inch test, but feels loose and looks significant, nevertheless. This is a Mark II gun, which I think precludes a mag disconnect, or am I confused agin.
The VQ sear looks fairly uniform. But, there is a very thin line on top of the edge exactly where the hammer ends when its tensing against the sear. It runs parallel to both these edges, exactly the length of the hammer contact on that same side of the wider sear, and doesn't look like its bearing the weight of the hammer (I think).
I'd read some earlier posts and tried to "polish" some surfaces suggested by them. I need to know more about how to do this because my jury rigged process does seem to have made a slight improvement. I used J-B bore compound at the end of some Q-tips (all I had at home) and worked the outside of the disconnecter, the lower part of its nub where it rides on top of the plunger, the top and sides of the plunger, and the inside of the plunger cavity in the trigger. Also the mating surfaces of the sear and hammer. I figured I couldn't do too much damage using the Q-tips, but am not even sure that's true. It appeared the surfaces were somewhat polished by this. Slight mars where flattened and looked somewhat smoothed out.
There's not a great difference in the pull. But, it seems like the first stage is a little less mushy and when it falls toward the second (pre-firing) phase, the distance across is shorter. The firing phase still takes too much pressure, but it's a little less grungy and finally kind of "rolls" to its release.
Talking purely from my POV as a combat shooter, if I could lose the durn first phase and lessen the pressure required for final release, I could live with this pistol as a practice tool. I'd like it to be crisper at final release - that's what great triggers are all about. But, I was always a revolver shooter in competition and don't think it would hurt to have this roll in my practice gun, especially if I learn to adapt back and forth, to a better trigger in my match gun, which is being worked on now.
The plunger hole measures 0.190" wide. It's set off to the side with only about 0.397" of material remaining to that side. The next drill size being 0.197" (#9), there seems plenty of room to drill the larger hole Bullseye recommends, though it doesn't look like much just eye-balling it. The thing is, when I tickled the surfaces inside the plunger cavity with some thin metal pieces to scope things out, it sure felt rough in some places below the top on one side. And after the J-B bore compound routine, these rough spots seemed less rough. I'd like to know what's best to use on all the surfaces I might smooth out and polish (#600 grit sandpaper's been mentioned) and whether I can try to get the plunger cavity smoothed by such a method. Otherwise, and if it's a better plan anyway, I'll look for someone who can throw the weight of a #9 twisted drill bit (?) down there and get the job done (or someone who can assure me that I can manage it).
I understand that the VQ folks are fighting some quality control issues and that influences whether I should go for their trigger at this point. I'm having the work on the match gun done at Clark's and am sky-high-hopeful that it turns out well. They'll put in their steel trigger and fit it. I'm still thinking about getting the Clark hammer bushing kit for this gun (enlarged sear and hammer pins, and hammer bushing, I believe). But, I'm also betting you're right, Bullseye, about the first stage problem in this gun's action being related to roughness in the plunger cavity.
I'm more than ready to absorb any suggestions you may have. Did I hurt anything by slapping and pushing J-B bore compound onto everything in sight? What can I use that's better to improve on the job, now that I've started? Is there a non-drilling, hand method, to open and smooth the inside of the plunger cavity?
BTW, I've always used pencil erasers as trigger stops and none has ever failed. Have to add a little tape once in a while, but it's my preferred method of shortening trigger over-travel, primarily because I'm shooting a high volume of ammo, and often quickly.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions. I still need help, but think I'm actually getting somewhere because of your generosity.
Took the gun down earlier this evening. Tried, without advice I woulda like to have had, to polish some surfaces.
There is some play in the hammer, not an eighth of an inch, but, visually, it opens a dark seam down at the hammer pivot pin. It doesn't pass the 1/8th inch test, but feels loose and looks significant, nevertheless. This is a Mark II gun, which I think precludes a mag disconnect, or am I confused agin.
The VQ sear looks fairly uniform. But, there is a very thin line on top of the edge exactly where the hammer ends when its tensing against the sear. It runs parallel to both these edges, exactly the length of the hammer contact on that same side of the wider sear, and doesn't look like its bearing the weight of the hammer (I think).
I'd read some earlier posts and tried to "polish" some surfaces suggested by them. I need to know more about how to do this because my jury rigged process does seem to have made a slight improvement. I used J-B bore compound at the end of some Q-tips (all I had at home) and worked the outside of the disconnecter, the lower part of its nub where it rides on top of the plunger, the top and sides of the plunger, and the inside of the plunger cavity in the trigger. Also the mating surfaces of the sear and hammer. I figured I couldn't do too much damage using the Q-tips, but am not even sure that's true. It appeared the surfaces were somewhat polished by this. Slight mars where flattened and looked somewhat smoothed out.
There's not a great difference in the pull. But, it seems like the first stage is a little less mushy and when it falls toward the second (pre-firing) phase, the distance across is shorter. The firing phase still takes too much pressure, but it's a little less grungy and finally kind of "rolls" to its release.
Talking purely from my POV as a combat shooter, if I could lose the durn first phase and lessen the pressure required for final release, I could live with this pistol as a practice tool. I'd like it to be crisper at final release - that's what great triggers are all about. But, I was always a revolver shooter in competition and don't think it would hurt to have this roll in my practice gun, especially if I learn to adapt back and forth, to a better trigger in my match gun, which is being worked on now.
The plunger hole measures 0.190" wide. It's set off to the side with only about 0.397" of material remaining to that side. The next drill size being 0.197" (#9), there seems plenty of room to drill the larger hole Bullseye recommends, though it doesn't look like much just eye-balling it. The thing is, when I tickled the surfaces inside the plunger cavity with some thin metal pieces to scope things out, it sure felt rough in some places below the top on one side. And after the J-B bore compound routine, these rough spots seemed less rough. I'd like to know what's best to use on all the surfaces I might smooth out and polish (#600 grit sandpaper's been mentioned) and whether I can try to get the plunger cavity smoothed by such a method. Otherwise, and if it's a better plan anyway, I'll look for someone who can throw the weight of a #9 twisted drill bit (?) down there and get the job done (or someone who can assure me that I can manage it).
I understand that the VQ folks are fighting some quality control issues and that influences whether I should go for their trigger at this point. I'm having the work on the match gun done at Clark's and am sky-high-hopeful that it turns out well. They'll put in their steel trigger and fit it. I'm still thinking about getting the Clark hammer bushing kit for this gun (enlarged sear and hammer pins, and hammer bushing, I believe). But, I'm also betting you're right, Bullseye, about the first stage problem in this gun's action being related to roughness in the plunger cavity.
I'm more than ready to absorb any suggestions you may have. Did I hurt anything by slapping and pushing J-B bore compound onto everything in sight? What can I use that's better to improve on the job, now that I've started? Is there a non-drilling, hand method, to open and smooth the inside of the plunger cavity?
BTW, I've always used pencil erasers as trigger stops and none has ever failed. Have to add a little tape once in a while, but it's my preferred method of shortening trigger over-travel, primarily because I'm shooting a high volume of ammo, and often quickly.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions. I still need help, but think I'm actually getting somewhere because of your generosity.
If the inside of your plunger hole is rough you can use a smaller twist drill shank and wrap some #600 grit silicon carbide (wet/dry) sandpaper around the shank and then insert in into the plunger hole to polish it. After dry sanding add a little light oil to the paper and hit it again, this will polish up the sides of the plunger hole to near glass like quality. If you don't have a drill press and a press vise, then I don't recommend boring out your plunger hole; it needs to be straight. The drill press and vise keep everything aligned properly. It's not a tough job, it just takes a little patience.The plunger hole measures 0.190" wide. It's set off to the side with only about 0.397" of material remaining to that side. The next drill size being 0.197" (#9), there seems plenty of room to drill the larger hole Bullseye recommends, though it doesn't look like much just eye-balling it. The thing is, when I tickled the surfaces inside the plunger cavity with some thin metal pieces to scope things out, it sure felt rough in some places below the top on one side. And after the J-B bore compound routine, these rough spots seemed less rough. I'd like to know what's best to use on all the surfaces I might smooth out and polish (#600 grit sandpaper's been mentioned) and whether I can try to get the plunger cavity smoothed by such a method. Otherwise, and if it's a better plan anyway, I'll look for someone who can throw the weight of a #9 twisted drill bit (?) down there and get the job done (or someone who can assure me that I can manage it).
Your line on the sear face sounds from your description like the contact mark between the sear and hammer hook. You can place some marking compound on the sear face and see. (A good alternative is a nice black or blue Sharpie permanent marker) Color the sear face and work the hammer a few times, then check out the marker to see if the engagement is even. I do not recommend free-handing your sear with polishing compound. That surface is very critical to the lock-up and polishing it to a point of changing the angle by as much as 1/2° can cause doubling. When you squeeze the trigger with the receiver off does the hammer stay put until release or does it move upward slightly just prior to moving forward?
R,
Bullseye
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blue68f100
- Master contributor
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- Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Piney Woods of East Texas
Yours may not be real bad then, but installing a Clark MKII Bushing will eliminate the play you have and most all creep you may have. Some have reported that it fixed some intermitten trigger issues. Which means they had some slop that the trigger stroke could not over come with excessive play. Being a MKII you do not have the extra lawyer junk.....There is some play in the hammer, not an eighth of an inch, but, visually, it opens a dark seam down at the hammer pivot pin. It doesn't pass the 1/8th inch test, but feels loose and looks significant, nevertheless. This is a Mark II gun, which I think precludes a mag disconnect, or am I confused agin.
If you decide to order the Clark MKII Bushing do a phone order and mention RimFire Central and you will get the bushing for $20 +5 for S&H. This will remove the $30 min and the higher shipping charges ($7.50).
David
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
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FourCornerm'n
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- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:40 pm
The plunger hole in the trigger's been handled as you describe and is smooth and polished inside. Functions very smoothly as far as I can tell by all my hand manipulations. Took 600 grit to other related parts as well. No significant change in the double resistance trigger pull, though.
Put some Red Dykem on top of the sear and pulled the action ten times. Looking at it now, the line across the top of the sear is where the hammer's edge engages, as you expected. The points of engagement are fairly easy to describe by a kind of diagram. Looking over the sear with the frame pointed away from me, this pattern of relative amounts of contact, no contact, and some contact, emerges:
(The G's are good contact, S's. slightly less contact, zeros no contact)
GG-000-G-00-GGGGG-SS
Again, all the contact points, except the two S's, reach up to the slim line where the hammer hook reaches. I don't know what to make of these results.
I'm not sure what you mean by letting the trigger off with the top end removed. There's little movement without the mainspring housing in the gun and I'm not sure if I can safely close the installed mainspring housing latch (with the top off) because there's no spring pressure against it.
I'm not as ready as I thought in getting the Clark bushing kit. I've got a rear sight repair that was discussed on GunTalk months ago, and which I'm confident I can handle. And today, the gun misfired about 15 - 18 times again, in 350 rounds. About half went off the second time, the rest took 3 hits and failed to fire. The Wally World Federal bulk 550's was bought a year or more back and usually gave me 2 - 4 failures with most firing the second hit, not 15+.
One step at a time. I hope I can get this thing working in a reasonable amount of time. I know I'm being a burden here, and it ticks me off. I bought this gun new at a gun show in 2005, but it looked somewhat shop worn. It hadn't been fired, but wasn't well cared for. Ruger says, despite their serial number list which indicates it was released that year, that the gun was released from them in 2003.
Put some Red Dykem on top of the sear and pulled the action ten times. Looking at it now, the line across the top of the sear is where the hammer's edge engages, as you expected. The points of engagement are fairly easy to describe by a kind of diagram. Looking over the sear with the frame pointed away from me, this pattern of relative amounts of contact, no contact, and some contact, emerges:
(The G's are good contact, S's. slightly less contact, zeros no contact)
GG-000-G-00-GGGGG-SS
Again, all the contact points, except the two S's, reach up to the slim line where the hammer hook reaches. I don't know what to make of these results.
I'm not sure what you mean by letting the trigger off with the top end removed. There's little movement without the mainspring housing in the gun and I'm not sure if I can safely close the installed mainspring housing latch (with the top off) because there's no spring pressure against it.
I'm not as ready as I thought in getting the Clark bushing kit. I've got a rear sight repair that was discussed on GunTalk months ago, and which I'm confident I can handle. And today, the gun misfired about 15 - 18 times again, in 350 rounds. About half went off the second time, the rest took 3 hits and failed to fire. The Wally World Federal bulk 550's was bought a year or more back and usually gave me 2 - 4 failures with most firing the second hit, not 15+.
One step at a time. I hope I can get this thing working in a reasonable amount of time. I know I'm being a burden here, and it ticks me off. I bought this gun new at a gun show in 2005, but it looked somewhat shop worn. It hadn't been fired, but wasn't well cared for. Ruger says, despite their serial number list which indicates it was released that year, that the gun was released from them in 2003.
This is accomplished by installing the mainspring into the frame with the receiver off. The tension will come from the hammer strut positioned in the mainspring cap. Letting off means that you manually cock the hammer and then squeeze the trigger but you should catch the hammer with your thumb before it goes all he way forward. The trick is to not have your thumb on the hammer at let off or you'll affect the pull. Closely observe the hammer does it rise slightly just before release?I'm not sure what you mean by letting the trigger off with the top end removed. There's little movement without the mainspring housing in the gun and I'm not sure if I can safely close the installed mainspring housing latch (with the top off) because there's no spring pressure against it.
Not really unusual as some dealers have pistols in shelf stock for a long time before they exhaust the supply and reorder. Sometimes a big order results in a lower cost per unit.I bought this gun new at a gun show in 2005, but it looked somewhat shop worn. It hadn't been fired, but wasn't well cared for. Ruger says, despite their serial number list which indicates it was released that year, that the gun was released from them in 2003.
R,
Bullseye
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FourCornerm'n
- Regular contributor
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- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:40 pm
Dang, looks like I've frozen the gun up. With the top off, I aligned the hammer strut with the mainspring and when it bore on the mainspring the hammer came up into its decocked position, the latch closed without the usual resistance at the end. I moved the mainspring latch back out to see if it would release and open, and it did.
I returned it and the hammer came up again. I pushed the hammer down to set position against the force of the mainspring. I tried pulling the trigger. It moved without being under tension, didn't release normally with the expected snap. I opened the latch and started to remove the mainspring out (under tension), it only came out slightly, dropped down very slightly (so the inside latching arm wouldn't clear the frame (if it could move back at all), and the hammer came up, under tension, rising about 30% of the way towards its decocked position. But everything froze in this position. Mainspring and hammer seem to be frozen solid. Trigger moves freely without tension (except from the plunger).
Whoops !
I returned it and the hammer came up again. I pushed the hammer down to set position against the force of the mainspring. I tried pulling the trigger. It moved without being under tension, didn't release normally with the expected snap. I opened the latch and started to remove the mainspring out (under tension), it only came out slightly, dropped down very slightly (so the inside latching arm wouldn't clear the frame (if it could move back at all), and the hammer came up, under tension, rising about 30% of the way towards its decocked position. But everything froze in this position. Mainspring and hammer seem to be frozen solid. Trigger moves freely without tension (except from the plunger).
Whoops !
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blue68f100
- Master contributor
- Posts: 1997
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Piney Woods of East Texas
Sounds like the hammer strut in not in the main spring housing. Do I understand you correctly that you do not have the barrel on. Can you flip the hammer in to the fire position? If the trigger does not trip you should beable to release the sear to cause the hammer to drop. After doing this you should beable to get the main spring out.
David
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
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FourCornerm'n
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- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:40 pm
OK, back in order, again. In the position last described above, the hammer was so frozen in its 30 degree position that there was also no side play at all - like there was yesterday when I was checking for looseness. And strong light into the gun showed that the hammer strut was in its cap in the mainspring. Playing with the mainspring latch, there was a hint of movement and I got it to release - so that's ok now.
Put the mainspring back in and reset the hammer. What I think I did before, however, was have the hammer further down so it was parallel to the top of the frame - and that's when I pulled the trigger to no avail. That's when I unlatched the latch, it moved back and the trigger moved forward under tension to its cocked position This time, I placed the hammer correctly in the cocked position and left the mainspring latch alone and have pulled the trigger five times carefully observing it.
There is no upward movement of any kind in the hammer before it wallops my thumb. The first stage resistance precedes the set-trigger-before-release phase as it always has. The disconnector moves loosely forward slightly at first finger pressure - followed by the first stage resistance that I'd love to leave on a table somewhere - then the last set stage before release. It's all the same as before: first stage resistance with fall off to second set stage and more pressure than wanted before release (but not a bad release, perhaps).
At least I got the thing apart and can handle Bullseye's instructions.
It only took most of the day. (Wasn't working on it much and the truck's hung up so wasn't going shooting anyway).
So, these tests are done as carefully as I could manage (so far). Any useful info? I'm ready to keep going whenever it's convenient for you, Bullseye. (And thanks blue)
Put the mainspring back in and reset the hammer. What I think I did before, however, was have the hammer further down so it was parallel to the top of the frame - and that's when I pulled the trigger to no avail. That's when I unlatched the latch, it moved back and the trigger moved forward under tension to its cocked position This time, I placed the hammer correctly in the cocked position and left the mainspring latch alone and have pulled the trigger five times carefully observing it.
There is no upward movement of any kind in the hammer before it wallops my thumb. The first stage resistance precedes the set-trigger-before-release phase as it always has. The disconnector moves loosely forward slightly at first finger pressure - followed by the first stage resistance that I'd love to leave on a table somewhere - then the last set stage before release. It's all the same as before: first stage resistance with fall off to second set stage and more pressure than wanted before release (but not a bad release, perhaps).
At least I got the thing apart and can handle Bullseye's instructions.
It only took most of the day. (Wasn't working on it much and the truck's hung up so wasn't going shooting anyway).So, these tests are done as carefully as I could manage (so far). Any useful info? I'm ready to keep going whenever it's convenient for you, Bullseye. (And thanks blue)
Actually all sounds normal. The first stage you describe is the take-up of the slack and the trigger plunger spring is the resistance. After the slack is gone then you have the actual release pressure of the sear and the mainspring, this is much heavier than the slack. But with a good sear/hammer engagement should still be around 2-2.5 lbs to hammer let-off.
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye