Accurate Arms #7 in the .45 Colt

[allendavis]

I've got a pile of data on using Accurate Arms #2 and #5 in the .45 Colt, but almost nothing on #7, and I strongly believe it would be a great powder for the .45 Colt if used in moderation.

Being a slower burning powder than #2 or #5, all I'm seeking is just a little bit better loading density in the case. I'm not interested in "magnumizing" this round.

I'm only seeking 850-900 fps with a 255 gr. Keith-style lead SWC. I'm already getting those velocities with #2 and #5, but I'm a bit fearful of the pressures I may be generating with those faster-burning powders with their sharper pressure curves.

Moreover, with those powders, I'm getting Extreme Spreads and Standard Deviations that I'm not willing to settle for. And I'm definitely not satisfied with 2.5-3" groups at 25 yards.

My handloads for my 9mm Hi-Power routinely produce SD numbers of well under 10.0 for either a 125 gr. LRN or a 115 gr. JHP (1060 fps and 1250 fps respectively). And my routine handloads for the .45 ACP produce an average SD of between 10.89 and 12.12 with either a 225 gr. LRN or a 185 gr. JHP (810 fps and 1070 fps respectively). I get sub-1-inch groups at 25 yards with my loads for both these cartridges in my guns.

Before anyone suggests Unique, forget it, unless the new manufacturer has figured how to make it burn cleaner (I've complained about Unique on this site many times before).

Someone else suggested I look at Blue Dot, but I can't find any data for it.

And I do have a couple of really old loading manuals from the late '60s and early '70s that have loads for 2400, but I'm scared stiff of trying those, even though they're listed separately from those loads intended for the Blackhawk or Contender.

Any and all suggestions are welcome with my gratitude.

Allen

[J Miller]

Allen,

You've probably found this by now, but I just read your post and can provide a tiny bit of data.

Accurate AA #7:
LOADS FOR THE .45 COLT
LOADS FOR COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY AND REPLICA SINGLE ACTIONS
BULLET LOAD MV
Bull-X 255 SWC
14.0 gr. AA#7 929

This data comes from Taffin Tests: http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt45lc.htm

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BlueDot:
250gr Lead bullet,
Min OAL: 1.55
Test Barrel length: 7.3
Primer: Win WLP
Powder: Blue Dot 11.5
Velocity: 890
Pressure: c.u.p.12,200

This data is from the Alliant web site: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... lletid=110

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Speer #13 on page 581, in the standard pressure section lists these loads for the .45 Colt:

2400:
250gr lead SWC
15.4grs = 972fps
13.4grs = 838fps

Blue Dot:
250gr lead SWC
12.9grs = 1028fps
11.9grs = 912fps

These loads were established in a S&W 25-5 6" barrel and according to their text are within SAAMI specs.

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Don't be afraid of these powders, they work just fine.

About the only problem you'll have with 2400 at this level is it's a bit too slow and will burn dirty. If you do try it you'll need a good tight case to bullet tension and a tight crimp. Magnum primers are not needed.

Blue Dot will be a bit better.

Hopes this helps some. I haven't found any more, but if I do I'll post it here.

Joe

[allendavis]

Joe

The loads you listed look interesting, but I will have to mull over them a bit if you don't mind.

The 2400 loads do concern me. 15.4 gr. sounds awfully heavy for my gun. I know it's a different cartridge altogether, but 17.5 gr. with a 170 gr. Sierra JHC was my PRACTICE load in my Old Model Ruger Blackhawk .41 Magnum. And that load was a screamer.

I know, I know: apples and oranges, but I get really paranoid about hot-loading the .45 Colt in a SAA or a clone.

The Blue Dot loads look very interesting. Like I said, I'll mull things over.

I have just over 2,000 215-gr. LSWC bullets and over 5,000 255-gr. "cowboy" bullets so I can do a lot of experimenting.

Thanks a bunch, Joe.

Allen

[J Miller]

Allen,

I understand your concerns. I haven't had a Colt copy to shoot for a very long time. Just been shooting my S&W 25-5 and my OM BH.

I've never used an AA7, and most of my experiances with Blue Dot and 2400 have been in the .357 Mag, and upper pressure level loads in the .45 Colt.

The loads I posted are untried by me, I only know what I read as I posted them.

Joe

[allendavis]

I understand your concerns. I haven't had a Colt copy to shoot for a very long time. Just been shooting my S&W 25-5 and my OM BH.

I've never used an AA7, and most of my experiances with Blue Dot and 2400 have been in the .357 Mag, and upper pressure level loads in the .45 Colt.

The loads I posted are untried by me, I only know what I read as I posted them.

Joe

I don't mind bumping my head against pressure ceilings too much with a magnum handgun with a big, beefy frame. But I'm almost a pu**y when it comes to pushing the envelope with a Colt SAA or a clone. Many people (almost always uninformed) comment on how big they think the gun is, but that frame is quite fragile if its used with heavy loads.

My absolute favorite load for accuracy for my .45 Colt is 6.5 gr. of HP-38 with a 255 gr. Keith-style SWC. It's absolutely amazing at printing small groups, but the load barely clocks in at 700 fps, well below what I expected after I chronographed it.

Nevertheless, I just dropped a young whitetail buck with it on my Dad's property just a few days ago. Instant kill at 45 long paces. Specimen massed almost 105 lbs. on-the-hoof. (5-pointer, by the way. 3 spikes on one antler, 2 on the other.) Not a trophy, but excellent for meat. A buddy is processing it for me and I don't have it back yet. This one is going to be roasts, steaks and ribs mostly.

I digress.

I've always had it stuck in my head that the .45 Colt with my bullet would need to break at least 850 fps to be effective deer medicine, which may be a myth I need to get out of my head. Then again, it was a damn good shot. Through both lungs and the heart and only nicked one rib bone on entry. I recovered the bullet inside the bullet lodged against a bone. One of the cleanest shots I've ever made, and yes, I'm proud of it. But it was luck. Knowing the bullet killed the animal with one shot and didn't exit tells me the bullet used all its energy.

Nevertheless, if it's that easy to kill a deer of that size with this load, then why am I so preoccupied with velocity? Isn't accuracy/shot placement the most important factor? Especially with a bullet of that mass and diameter?

At the same time, I'm never in the market to shoot the biggest beast in the woods with the most gigantic rack. You don't eat antlers, and I'm not interested in a trophy for the wall of my den. I've killed a couple of monsters before, and the eating wasn't good enough to send Mom a postcard about.

Other than coyotes, I eat everything I kill. Well, not squirrels maybe, but I give those to a friend-of-a-friend who thinks they're manna from heaven.

I will continue to experiment with .45 Colt loads, but only for a friend of mine who does insist on a certain velocity level He wants a minimum of 850 fps, and nothing I've tried shows the consistency of my own mild load.

The amount of loading data I now have is overloading me. I'm trying to find a powder, but now not necessarily AA #7. I may not even rule out Unique at this point. At least I won't have to clean his gun!!!

Thanks for your input.

Allen

[J Miller]

Allen,

Congrats on the deer.

That load would have been illegal here in IL. The law here requires 500 ft lbs of muzzel energy minimum from any handgun caliber you hunt with. Stupid energy laws that prevent effective loads from being used.

When I had my Iver Johnsons Cattleman SA I used 231 and Unique in it. Keeping those loads to 7.1grs and 8.5 grs respectively under a 250 to 255gr bullet.

My MOST accurate load turned out to be 7.1grs of 231 under a Lyman 454190 bullet cast from wheel weights and sized to .454".
I've used that load for decades as my factory duplication load. I've never chronographed it, but when shooting it side by side with Winchester factory 255gr ammo, the trajectory was identicle at all ranges from every gun I've shot it out of.

Change gears:

When I sold the last or well the last functional Cattleman and went to the Ruger BH I upped the Unique load to 9.0grs under a 265gr Lyman 454424 Keith bullet. This has been my staple do all load for about 25 years.
(It's the one I shook my 25-5 loose with. It only took 5,000 rounds though .)
Any way, I do push the envelope a bit with standard pressure levels, but the Ruger is the only one to get the stompers.

Hercules / Alliant Unique - I've been shooting this powder since the early-mid 70's. I can't tell any difference between the two vintages. It's never been the dirtiest nor the cleanest to me. I still have many hundreds of rounds of .45 Colt and .38 Spcl loaded with the Hercules version. And on the occasion when I've shot it side by side with the Alliant version, well, if there's any difference I can't tell it.

As far as I'm concerned, I can do anything and every thing I want with the .45 Colt with one powder - Unique. But I still want to keep my three regular powders for this caliber: 231, Unique and 2400.

Oh, have you tried IMR PB? I've used it off and on in .45ACPs and recently found a load for the .45 Colt in an older Speer manual, that has produced some nice shooting mild recoiling accurate loads. It's a standard pressure load I wouldn't hesitate to shoot in a Colt copy. It's cleaner, or at least the load I shot was, than many others I've tried. If you interested let me know and I'll dig out the data.

Joe

[allendavis]

Allen,

Congrats on the deer.

Thanks, but no big deal except for the extra meat this winter!

That load would have been illegal here in IL. The law here requires 500 ft lbs of muzzel energy minimum from any handgun caliber you hunt with. Stupid energy laws that prevent effective loads from being used.

I absolutely agree. I was on the committee that wrote Indiana's original handgun hunting regs back in 1984, and we made plenty of mistakes. The biggest one was not somehow including the 10 mm Auto on the list of legal cartridges. We based things on cartridge case length and bullet diameter, and things haven't changed much since then. The 10 mm makes diameter, but its case length doesn't, yet its much more powerful than the .357 Magnum, and we let people hunt deer with 4" barrel revolvers!

I've not been involved in writing DNR regulations for 20 years, but I still have acquaintances who do. Obviously, I have little or no influence upon them.

When I had my Iver Johnsons Cattleman SA I used 231 and Unique in it. Keeping those loads to 7.1grs and 8.5 grs respectively under a 250 to 255gr bullet.

My MOST accurate load turned out to be 7.1grs of 231 under a Lyman 454190 bullet cast from wheel weights and sized to .454".
I've used that load for decades as my factory duplication load. I've never chronographed it, but when shooting it side by side with Winchester factory 255gr ammo, the trajectory was identicle at all ranges from every gun I've shot it out of.

Chronograph or not, it appears you had one helluva consistent load, which I always thought was the goal of any diligent handloader/hunter.

Change gears:

When I sold the last or well the last functional Cattleman and went to the Ruger BH I upped the Unique load to 9.0grs under a 265gr Lyman 454424 Keith bullet. This has been my staple do all load for about 25 years.
(It's the one I shook my 25-5 loose with. It only took 5,000 rounds though .)

OUCH!

I had a similar experience with my Ruger Old Model Blackhawk .41 Magnum and a S&W Model 57. The loads my Ruger gobbled up without a bobble eventually loosened up my beloved M-57, much to my everlasting grief. The BH is a brick shithouse.

This lesson is the one that taught me to respect a gun's limitations, and these days, if I need a really hot load, then I simply move to a bigger gun/caliber/etc.

Any way, I do push the envelope a bit with standard pressure levels, but the Ruger is the only one to get the stompers.

Hercules / Alliant Unique - I've been shooting this powder since the early-mid 70's. I can't tell any difference between the two vintages. It's never been the dirtiest nor the cleanest to me. I still have many hundreds of rounds of .45 Colt and .38 Spcl loaded with the Hercules version. And on the occasion when I've shot it side by side with the Alliant version, well, if there's any difference I can't tell it.

I tried one pound of Alliant's Unique a few years after the demise of Hercules, and it was filthier and dirtier than any Russian Wolf ammo I've ever seen. That's when I swore of Unique, but as I said before, I may take it up again if necessary to get the results I want.

As far as I'm concerned, I can do anything and every thing I want with the .45 Colt with one powder - Unique. But I still want to keep my three regular powders for this caliber: 231, Unique and 2400.

I haven't found any 2400 loads in any of my manuals for years, except for the Blackhawk or Contender, and I still contend that powders have been reformulated over the years that results in lower listed maximum charges. However, I think that the handloading people are also covering their butts for liability purposes by publishing lower numbers. I can't testify to this because I have no pressure testing equipment. However, owning a chronograph does a lot to make up for that deficiency.

Oh, have you tried IMR PB? I've used it off and on in .45ACPs and recently found a load for the .45 Colt in an older Speer manual, that has produced some nice shooting mild recoiling accurate loads. It's a standard pressure load I wouldn't hesitate to shoot in a Colt copy. It's cleaner, or at least the load I shot was, than many others I've tried. If you interested let me know and I'll dig out the data.

As a matter of fact, I've used barrels of PB over the years. I wish DuPont was still in the powder business, because I likewise believe the powders IMR make aren't quite the same or as good as they once were. I loved PB in the .45 ACP and in the 9mm. I also liked SR-7625 a great deal, too. Both very clean-burning and very, very consistent.

I would never consider using PB or SR-7625 in any heavy-bullet .45 Colt load, however.

I'm still looking and researching, but I want to thank you for your kind response. Sounds like you've been around the block a few times.

Allen