Laser sights

The place to discuss the inner workings of firearms.

Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators

User avatar
bearandoldman
Ye Loquacious Olde Pharte
Ye Loquacious Olde Pharte
Posts: 4193
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:30 am
Location: Mid Michigan

Post by bearandoldman » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:21 am

[quote="Bullseye"]Unfortunately I could not delve into the forum database code and restore Greener's post count and the joining date. I only know a little about coding and php is not my forte.

R,
Bullseye[he was pretty close to my count/quote]
You have great day and shoot straight and may the Good Lord smile on you.
Image

User avatar
Coach1
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:09 pm
Location: Apex North Carolina

Post by Coach1 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:52 pm

Well, we have gone a little 'off-topic' with this muddle about Greener's login woes.
Bullseye, you do a fantastic job with this forum and we value you for your knowledge and readiness to share it... not your programming skills.


So, Stew.. back on topic. Let us know what choice you make - if you get a laser.
.. pistol; grip, rail mounted, green/red or a combo-color model.

There are some laser models that replace the recoil spring guide rod in semi-autos. But, as I recall,
there were issues of durability.. especially in heavier caliber guns.
Coach
"You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need." The Rolling Stones

User avatar
greener
Garrulous Maximus
Garrulous Maximus
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:16 pm

Post by greener » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:09 am

Bullseye wrote:Unfortunately I could not delve into the forum database code and restore Greener's post count and the joining date. I only know a little about coding and php is not my forte.

R,
Bullseye
That's ok, only 3800 or so posts and I'll be all caught up.

User avatar
ruger22
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:35 pm
Location: Virginia

Post by ruger22 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:00 am

greener wrote:
Bullseye wrote:Unfortunately I could not delve into the forum database code and restore Greener's post count and the joining date. I only know a little about coding and php is not my forte.

R,
Bullseye
That's ok, only 3800 or so posts and I'll be all caught up.
I looked and your old posts are still here, showing you as a "guest". We'll give you a week or so to catch up........ :D ..........How does it feel being nine years younger?

Back to topic, I don't have any lasers. I think one value of them is to learn better grip and trigger control. I always thought my grip was reasonably steady, until the first time I tried someone's laser. That dot dancing all over the paper showed me how wrong I was. Lucky I ever got better than six inch groups! I've thought about adding a laser to at least one of my LCRs, since you need all the help you can get with a snub.
*Two Bearcat stainless, w/ EWK ejector housings & Wolff springs
*SP-101 .22LR, w/ Wolff springs
*SP-101 .357 snub w/ Wolff springs
*10/22 Deluxe Sporter, unmodded!
*Two NAA Guardian 32

User avatar
charlesb
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Mountains of West Texas

Post by charlesb » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:10 am

The laser sights have their pros and cons. Several of the Pros are fairly significant, and tend to be overlooked in our discussion of the Cons.

I owned a laser sight for a while, mounted on a 1911 in .45 ACP. This was in the early days of laser sights, when there was no really good way to attach or switch the things on. It was clamped onto the front of the gun's trigger guard, with the pressure switch mounted on a velcro strap that went around the grip.

Despite this delicate, precarious mounting and activation system, I found that the laser sight had a lot to recommend it. In the end though, the mounting system available back then made it impractical for everyday use.

The main advantages I saw were speed and precision when addressing targets beyond spitting distance, from 5 to 50 yards. With the laser sight, the gun did not have to be held out at arms length but could be held in a more natural position down closer to the waist, closer to the holster.

In addition to this, the target, rear sight and front sight did not have to be aligned. Instead, addressing a target was as natural and as quick as pointing a finger or a flashlight.

Starting by holding the gun muzzle-down at my side, there was a significant difference in the speed and accuracy with which I could address a target anywhere from ten feet to 50 yards away. - I could get off two precisely aimed shots from the waist with the laser in the time it took me to haul the gun up to eye level, align the sights with the target and fire one shot with the irons.

It should also be noted that under stress, shooters tend to misuse the iron sight unless they have practiced diligently and at length. The most common mistake it to shoot high. This is not a factor with a laser dot, and the dot does not require constant training to overcome this problem. - Pointing the dot is as natural and as quick as pointing a flashlight, even when under stress.

Last, I noted that the laser sight accomplished the same thing as a hanging sheet of heavy canvas and wax bullet loads for somebody trying to learn quick-draw point-shooting from the waist. When you draw the gun and activate the dot, you get an immediate indication of how well you have pointed the gun. Practicing with the laser will give the same benefit, teaching your body how the gun must be held to point accurately and quickly, just out of the holster. With an unloaded pistol equipped with a laser, you can practice your quick-draw anywhere, at any time that wouldn't end up alarming somebody.

I think that eventually the switch is going to have to be moved to the trigger. - Something like the contact lamps that are switched on and off by a simple touch.

Personally, I can see an advantage to a laser even at very close range. With some knowledge of anatomy, one can put a bullet precisely where it will achieve the effect desired.

None of this negates any of the drawbacks associated with laser sights, but I feel that a balanced view can only be achieved by being aware of the advantages to be found with a modern laser sight as well. Now that the mounting and activation methods for lasers is more sophisticated, they are much more useful than they were, back when I was looking into it twenty years ago.
Last edited by charlesb on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
greener
Garrulous Maximus
Garrulous Maximus
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:16 pm

Post by greener » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:13 am

The laser does show up your faults. Actually, it shows that you can't hold the gun perfectly steady. If you are getting an SD snubbie in 6", you may be doing ok, if you can hold those 6" when your pulse is doing 200.

Stew
New member
New member
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:32 pm
Location: United States

Post by Stew » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:23 pm

...So, Stew.. back on topic. Let us know what choice you make - if you get a laser.
.. pistol; grip, rail mounted, green/red or a combo-color model. ...

I have just about decided to purchase a LaserMax (price) trigger guard mount. For some reason the green runs a hundred, or more, dollars than the red? So I'll get the red for now. Pistol is a Ruger LC9s. If this proves to be the right move then I'll look into something for my Glock 23.
Thanks for the great discussion.
Stew
Dunedin, Florida

User avatar
blue68f100
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Piney Woods of East Texas

Post by blue68f100 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:26 pm

I don't know if you plan to carry it with the laser. If you do, your better off with the ones built in to the grip. No switch to worry about, comes on when you grip the gun. And you have the option to turn it off. Then std holsters work. Very few holster are setup to be used with accessories attached to them.,
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

User avatar
Coach1
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:09 pm
Location: Apex North Carolina

Post by Coach1 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:48 am

Stew, I have also noticed that the green lasers carry a premium on price versus red. I read a couple of articles in trade mags reporting that the green technology is a bit more expensive for the manufacturers. And the market demand / sales are tilted for the red. So for now, those of us with a preference for green will have to open the wallet a bit more.

Blue has a very good observation regarding holsters if you plan to CCW carry your LC9 or Glock.
However, those are both very popular handguns and you may find a holster maker with one that will accommodate a rail mounted laser.
Please keep us posted.
Coach
"You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need." The Rolling Stones

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:32 am

I got into a scrap at work the other day and had to taser a guy who was having a bad LSD trip. He tore up his buddy's house then charged me and my partner when we confronted him in the doorway to the house... I do not remember using the sights on the taser but focused on the laser dot... of course at less than 5 yards it was mostly point shooting anyhow...

I say this because although I have never used a firearm with laser "for real" I have used the taser quite a few times... The mechanics of draw, aim, pull trigger, and follow through are the same.
Things I have noticed:
1) bad guys take you more seriously with a laser on their chest.
2) aimed fire under stress, while moving, or from awkward positions is much easier with a laser sight.
3) low light shooting is easier with a laser.
4) you don't need you special shooting glasses to see you sights.
5) you better have a back up plan. Like using your sights if the laser takes a crap on you.
6) don't stand still, he'll just run into you
7) don't worry about the laser "giving away your position" if you have to shoot someone in a defensive gun use they probably already know you are there.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
Hakaman
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1932
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: detroit, michigan

Post by Hakaman » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:25 am

The OP is talking about an LC9, basically a belly gun. SD distance is usually 5 yards at the most, and most likely about 10 feet, maybe? If these parameters are close, I don't see a need for a laser, it's just another step to confuse an already adrenaline filled shooter. If I can't hit a bg at 10 feet without a laser I should kiss my hind end goodbye right now. Besides, a laser, when in use, makes a statement "here I am bg, shoot here". Lasers are nice for fooling around at the range, and learning some trigger control issues, but I have noticed too many shooters with lasers being totally inept with them at the range to the point of interfering with good SD techniques. One guy put a laser on his hg and was adjusting for 45 minutes and couldn't get it sighted in. I went over to help him and he had the laser totally out of adjustment, 10 feet off center at 30 feet. Most shooters worry tooo much about the laser and not enough on SD technique. I like lasers, but not for self defense. I don't want a beacon giving my position away, nor interfering with my thought process.

User avatar
Coach1
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:09 pm
Location: Apex North Carolina

Post by Coach1 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:34 am

bg3,
That is a very insightful list.
I particularly like numbers 2 thru 6.
And those of us who have... matured (well gotten old, actually) should
take note of #4 for our night stand / bedside firearm.
Coach
"You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need." The Rolling Stones

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:02 pm

Hakaman wrote:The OP is talking about an LC9, basically a belly gun. SD distance is usually 5 yards at the most, and most likely about 10 feet, maybe?
Haka, the taser has a range of 7 yards (21 feet and you run out of wire) so that eaquals your "belly gun standard" for the lc9 ...
Besides, a laser, when in use, makes a statement "here I am bg, shoot here".
the laser says more "here I am BG, you are about to be shot" because if its a defensive use he already knows where you are.

besides if that dot on the Bad Guy's chest makes him change his actions, thats more of a win than shooting him.
Lasers are nice for fooling around at the range, and learning some trigger control issues, but I have noticed too many shooters with lasers being totally inept with them at the range to the point of interfering with good SD techniques.
One guy put a laser on his hg and was adjusting for 45 minutes and couldn't get it sighted in. I went over to help him and he had the laser totally out of adjustment, 10 feet off center at 30 feet. Most shooters worry tooo much about the laser and not enough on SD technique.
the same can be said about a rifle scope or red dot.....
I don't see a need for a laser, it's just another step to confuse an already adrenaline filled shooter. If I can't hit a bg at 10 feet without a laser I should kiss my hind end goodbye right now.
you are correct, try getting hits after getting knocked down or from a less than ideal stance..... or after fighting your way free from a guy.
I like lasers, but not for self defense. I don't want a beacon giving my position away, nor interfering with my thought process.
I'm 6'4" 275lbs and in decent shape (round and lumpy is a shape isn't it?) and I have no problems using anything to cheat in a fight.... just sayin'
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:08 pm

after all that, I do not have a laser on my SD guns, or my duty guns... more because of the cost is more than I wish to pay. and the Crimson Trace grips for the glock wouldn't fit in my duty holster ....
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:51 pm

Coach1 wrote:bg3,
That is a very insightful list.
I particularly like numbers 2 thru 6.
And those of us who have... matured (well gotten old, actually) should
take note of #4 for our night stand / bedside firearm.
Coach
thanks coach1, it only took me 14 years of police work to figure that out..... I'm a slow learner.

I also think a good light is a better investment than night sights..... the glowing sights are great but if you can't see/id your target you are destined for trouble.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

Post Reply