Going off half cocked

[greener]

In blue68f100's thread on Kimbers http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/vie ... 8389#28389 it was mentioned that production guns shouldn't allow the hammer to drop from the half cock. Is this a problem you might get with upgrade kits?

I recently put a Cylinder & Slide (hammer/sear/disconnector) kit in each of my 1911 project guns. Both hammers will drop from the half-cock when the trigger is pulled. Is there a fix?

I'm not sure I'm overly worried about it because I don't recall ever trusting a 1911 as safe at half-cock.

[Bullseye]

I did say that some custom 1911 sears would drop from the half-cock position when you squeeze the trigger but a production gun should not. This is one of the several safety checks I run before I buy or work on any 1911's. If I find one that drops, then that is an indication to me that someone has either altered the sear or replaced it.

Generally a 1911 will not fire a cartridge from the half-cock position, however if you have an old sear with a captive half-cock notch, and the hammer is sitting on top of the half-cock hook, there may be enough inertia in the hammer to cause a case to detonate if the trigger is pulled. It is not advised to use this position on the hammer as a safety device. It is only there to catch the hammer and prevent it from striking the firing pin if the hammer should accidentally fall from any place but the fully cocked position. Some folks think the Series 80 firing pin block will prevent an AD but not if you squeeze the trigger to move the hammer off the half-cock notch. Squeezing the trigger activates the levers and plunger to release the firing pin block in the later model 1911 Colts.

R,
Bullseye

[bearandoldman]

I'm not sure I'm overly worried about it because I don't recall ever trusting a 1911 as safe at half-cock.

My exact sentiments also. Mine are either cocked or locked or hammer down on an empty chamber and usually no mg. If the gun has a mag and ammo it will definitely be cocked and locked and ready to rock, that is a safe 1911.

[greener]

If it won't go without the grip safety being depressed and an active tug on the trigger, I'm not really worried. If I pull the trigger, it is because I meant to pull the trigger which means I should have the thing pointed in a "safe" direction.

Besides, I have a whole life's experience at going off half cocked.

[bearandoldman]

If it won't go without the grip safety being depressed and an active tug on the trigger, I'm not really worried. If I pull the trigger, it is because I meant to pull the trigger which means I should have the thing pointed in a "safe" direction.

Besides, I have a whole life's experience at going off half cocked.

I agree, especially the last statement.

[blue68f100]

It caught me by surprise when it did fall since the others did not. So it's suppose to be capture in case the hammer falls during a anomaly. It did not fall if the grip safety was not pressed/made I may send Kimber a email and ask them what is normal for this gun. This got me curious now since Bullseye says Production guns are not suppose too.

Whats different in the works for these to react differently?

As far as carry Condition 1 no other. So in reality 1/2 cock should never be.

[bearandoldman]

Right you are blue, half cock should not be a problem. My carry guns are always ready in various parts of my home or on my person.

As far as recoil on a light gun, my Micro is an even 2 pounds loaded and the recoil is manageable. Remember it is not a target gun, if you want to do a long range session get a full size 1911. They carry guns will normally get used every month or so, 2 mags or cylinders fur in point and shoot situation at 7 yards on the S?D range at my club. Just to make sure they are working. I clean them and then shoot them and then Carry, as then I know they are working.
That just the way I do it, others opinions will most likely vary.

[blue68f100]

I downloaded the manual on the Kimber's This is what it had to say.:

HAMMER SAFETY STOP
The hammer safety stop is a notch on the
hammer which prevents it from falling fully forward
in the event of primary sear notch failure. It also
prevents fingers slip from the slide or hammer
while cocking the pistol, provided the hammer has
been moved past the stop. The safety stop is not
a manual safety! Do not under any circumstances
use the safety stop as a “half cock” position. This
misuse can result in damage to the sear, and/or
unintentional discharge of the pistol. The safety
stop position is an automatically engaging safety
feature and should never be engaged by hand!

Which some what answer the question but does not explain why one did while the others did not.

[blue68f100]

I got the answer, by calling Kimber CS.

He said the hammer should NOT be able to drop. The cause of the hammer dropping was the results of someone letting the slide hammer forward on a empty chamber. This damages the trigger group. He said you should always ease the slide down on a empty chamber. To load you should Slingshot the Slide letting it load the round.

[Bullseye]

Which comes back to what I mentioned about a production gun. The factory sear face is sufficiently broader on these pistols and if it drops someone may have replaced it with a custom sear that has a narrower face or a shallower engagement angle. The factory doesn't want to deal with liability issues on production guns so they over engineer their safety devices. When you customize a pistol you assume the risk of altering the specifications of the pistol from the factory original. Then they (the factory) are not obligated to honor any problems associated with an altered firearm. This is where the custom gunsmith must take on some responsibility and ensure that a pistol meets safety standards. You don't give a customer a #2 trigger on a pistol that they have little experience with for operation. That's just asking for trouble without a waiver. There's been more than a few times I've sent work out the door because the customer wanted something I was not comfortable with providing them.

R,
Bullseye

[blue68f100]

Now this being a display gun, NO telling how many people have handled it. Someone new to guns may have not been instructed not to drop the slide on a empty chamber. I see it all to often people just from habit use the slide release and let it fly. This had a very heavy RS (18-22) that could have just slipped from someone hands too, not knowing that was not good. Even the counter guy could not release the slide once locked back. The slide release is very small on this gun and big hands present problems.

I did not put the 2 together on what you said. It does make sense now once you look at how the hammer/sear/disconnector work together. Do all mfg these days have a broader sear face or just guns design for carry. I can see this being a disadvantage on a race gun. The only Colt I looked at dropped at 1/2 cocked too.

[Bullseye]

Carry guns are made for a specific purpose - self protection. Match guns are too - shooting targets on a controlled range. These types of pistols do not share very many common traits, especially in their trigger groups. The factory hammer hook runs between .028".032"- yet a typical match hammer hook is cut down to a depth of only .018"-.022", far shallower than the original component. This hook height is where the feel of a sharp breaking trigger comes from, the shallower the hook the crisper the feel. But that is not an ideal situation for a pistol that will be subject to some jostling around hence the deeper hammer hook and sear engagement.

Any Series 70 style pistol should have a half-cock hammer hook rather than a shelf. This is why a Series 80 Colt (and some Springfields) will drop the hammer when the trigger is pulled from the half-cock position because it has a half-cock shelf instead of the captive half-cock hook like the earlier 1911 hammer versions.

R,
Bullseye

[greener]

So,

The purpose of the half cock is to prevent accidental discharge from the hammer slipping while being cocked.

Production 1911's, have a hammer shelf/hook that will catch and prevent the hammer from dropping when the trigger is pulled unless the slide has been slammed into battery by releasing the slide stop some unknown number of times rather than easing forward or the hammer and/or sear are not stock or have been modified.

Target guns will usually drop the hammer when the trigger is pulled.

Some production 1911's may act like target 1911's.

Conclusion: If you aren't very familiar with the pistol, you can't rely on the hammer not dropping when you pull the trigger. I can continue to ignore the half cock as a trigger safety.

[Coach1]

While I appreciate all the excellent technical details - such as the difference and value of a hook versus a shelf for half-cock... I want to thank greener for the clarity.

- Know how your gun responds in that position.. and
- Do not rely on half-cock as a safety when carrying the gun.

That is a rule to live by. Thanks.

[Bullseye]

You know, perhaps I'm just a little confused here. I don't recall endorsing, or suggesting, that anyone use the half-cock notch as a 1911 safety measure, in either of the postings where I was asked to respond how this feature worked.


R,
Bullseye