Stainless steel firearms VS Blued steel

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Georgezilla
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Post by Georgezilla » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:25 am

Thanks for clarifying Tony. I assumed you were only using the grease on the slide/frame. I am surprised that the topic was worth putting in a magazine. I think that if a firearm's internals were lubed with grease, the quality of the firearms overall function would take a huge hit.

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bigfatdave
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Post by bigfatdave » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:26 am

Georgezilla, a lot of makers cram in grease as shipping preservative, and seeing as most gun buyers aren't sophisticated like us, they pull the gun from the box, jam in ammo, and run the gun ... and amazingly most of them get away with it!

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Georgezilla
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Post by Georgezilla » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:01 pm

That's a good point BFD. I forgot about shipping grease. Though I guess most firearm buyers are not really "wrong" for not cleaning the grease off the internals after purchase. All of the firearm manuals I have ever read strongly discourage taking the firearm apart past field strip; some manuals even go so far as to note that doing so "voids all warranties." If one were to go by the manual, it would make it nearly impossible to clean all the grease off the internals (unless they were lucky enough to have one of those super sonic cleaning boxes).

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blue68f100
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Post by blue68f100 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:37 pm

Georgezilla wrote:Thanks for clarifying Tony. I assumed you were only using the grease on the slide/frame. I am surprised that the topic was worth putting in a magazine. I think that if a firearm's internals were lubed with grease, the quality of the firearms overall function would take a huge hit.
I have yet to meet a gunsmith that was a petroleum engineer and really knew lubrication. So most of those articles I take with a grain of salt and do not read them most of the time. Most just use what they found worked for them. Nothing wrong with that. I think this came about from the 60's before syn hit the market. Grease back then was very thick and heavy, like sticky putty for consistency. I never used grease 20 yrs ago. Now I use it on a regular basis now. Every gun is different when it comes to lubes requirement. A Sig likes to be run wet, other wise you will wear the Nitron coating off that protects the Alloy frame. A Glock prefers to be dry, their hard coating does not require any lubrication. Then you have to look at the ambient temp in which a gun needs to operate. Here again synthetics provide a broader range of operation. It's the contamination of a lubrication that causes most of the wear and problems. Technology in lubrication has improved greatly over the last 30 yrs. I use nothing but syn oils and grease now. I use a syn oil on all rotating surfaces. But when it comes to sliding surfaces grease can provide better wear protection and lubrication, beside staying put. I use a paint brush to apply grease, you only need it to wet the surface, not fill the cavity. If you have extended range time (on autos) grease holds up better on slides than oil. I know if I was using oil on my slide I had to make a mental note to re-oil the slide every 200 rounds. I have seen Sigs destroy slides in as little as 50 rounds. The person was coming from Glock's and did not lube the slide. Oils work very well for carry guns and equipment that is consider standby. You want it to function correctly when needed, 100% of the time. They both have a place in modern guns.

The bottom line is that what ever you use for lube, it must adhere to the surfaces to provide protection. If it runs off it is doing no good. Some are consider to be a dry lube, if the light ends that carry the lube evaporates away. Then you have to ask your self is the dry material left going to provide the needed lubrication. Will it stay there or separate from the surface while being used.

Just a few things to consider when you pick a lube for your gun......
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

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Hakaman
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Post by Hakaman » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:11 pm

1) Does SS wear at a similar rate to blued steel?
Will the "wear rate" really matter?
I think the question to ask is "will I wear out a barrel in my lifetime"?,
if so, "how many rounds of a particular load will it last"?
I wonder if it really matters, blue or SS in these regards?
You don't hear much talk about guns being retired because they wear out.
Where do guns go when they die?
haka

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ruger22
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Post by ruger22 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:38 pm

Hakaman wrote:Where do guns go when they die?
haka
I think I posted almost the same question here a while back, if someone can locate it.

I've always had the impression that stainless barrels wear better than carbon steel, so I've assumed other stainless parts did as well or better, too. Stainless contains chrome, and lots of barrels are chrome lined. If it's not better, why do it?
* 2 Ruger Bearcat stainless, w/ EWK ejector housings & Wolff springs
* Ruger SP-101 .22LR, w/ Wolff springs
* 2 NAA Guardian .32ACP
* 3 Zastava M70 .32ACP
* S&W 15-22 Sport (.22LR AR)
* 2 Ruger SR22 .22LR pistols

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Post by Bullseye » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:31 pm

Most rifle barrels will wear out from throat erosion instead of by rifling. Corrosion is another concern and stainless or chrome lined helps reduce the effect of this.

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Georgezilla
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Post by Georgezilla » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:31 pm

Haka, I did not intend my question to be about barrel life. It was really geared toward components of firearms that wear against each other, such as the slide and frame of a pistol.

Bullseye, do you mind explaining what throat corrosion is and how it happens?

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Post by Bullseye » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:07 pm

You've blended the two terms. Throat erosion is where the bullet leaves the cartridge and the hottest gasses erode the metal away causing more free bore as the round count rises. A throat erosion gauge is used to measure how much of the barrel has worn away and is a good judge of how "used" a used barrel is and how much life is left in it. Sometimes you can set back an eroded barrel and re-ream the chamber for proper head space and minimal free bore.

Corrosion is typically formed where the dissimilar metals found in modern cartridges react with moisture and the chemicals in the propellants to corrode away the lands and grooves. Chrome lined or stainless steel (high in chromium) help reduce the oxidation of the metal and reduce metal wear due to corrosion. High humidity (tropical weather regions) are harder on steel (non-chromed barrels) than the stainless ones.

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Post by stork » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:53 am

George & all,
I am not a gunsmith, just an avid Bullseye shooter and am sharing my personal experience with the 1911. All of my 1911's are blued steel, the only SS handgun I own is a Dan Wesson 41 mag I purchased 25 years ago.

Frame & slide fit and longevity will be directly dependent on the lube used and its frequency of use. I have used Red oil since I started shooting Bullseye and relube after the centerfire stage. There's a sticky on it in the Tech section.

I have now fired about 40,000 rounds through my primary wad gun. I had the first Kart barrel replaced at around 35,000 rounds as it wasn't holding 10 ring at 50 yards. My gunsmith also retightened the frame & slide at the same time. I hadn't noticed any loosening but he said he wanted to touch it up as long as he had it. From what I have learned, talking to other shooter that have shot a lot more rounds than me, was that normal life should have been at least 50000. I attribute my shortened barrel life to my usage of very hard cast bullets (BN 16-19) that I water dropped when casting. I no longer water quench them and just doing the thumbnail test I know they are softer than my old bullets (I don't have a BN tester, just borrowed the use of some for my old bullets).

I'm using the softer bullets in the new Kart barrel and it seems to be responding well. I don't use any jacketed with the exception of Camp Perry when I use the Remington 185 SWC (just because they shoot about 1/4-1/2" better than my best cast loads and give me no fliers). The new barrel also likes a softer crimp (.468) than my old barrel that liked .465. I attribute part of this to something I'd heard years, back when I first started casting, about a hard bullet needing a harder crimp. In this case it was true.

Sorry about blathering on about bullets and barrel life when your primary question was about SS vs Blued. Hopefully some new shooters can learn from my mistakes and not try to reinvent the wheel.

FWIW
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” – George Washington

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Georgezilla
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Post by Georgezilla » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:09 pm

Thanks for sharing Stork. That is interesting. I have always read most wad and even HB 1911s will have their barrels last 100K+ rounds. In the future, whatever finish the pistol I end up using is, I don't think using real soft bullets is going to be an option. The pistol would be for USPSC and the power factors will require the bullets to be pushed out a bit too fast for anything too soft.

Bullseye, sorry for mixing the terms. I had meant to type "throat erosion."
Is it safe to assume that pistol barrels are less subject to throat erosion and more subject to having the rifling worn out because pistol rounds do not produced as high temperature gases as rifle rounds?

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Post by Bullseye » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:22 pm

Georgezilla wrote:Is it safe to assume that pistol barrels are less subject to throat erosion and more subject to having the rifling worn out because pistol rounds do not produced as high temperature gases as rifle rounds?
That is correct. Like Stork said, a pistol barrel is more prone to wear along the rifling, depending mainly on the type/style of bullets used. This is why I really didn't describe the pistol barrel in my explanation on barrel life. I also like to use Kart barrels but they are only available in carbon steel, which means its a good idea to use a thin coat of preservative if planning on long term storage.

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