LEE-ENFIELD ISHAPORE 2A / 2A1

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jaeger45
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LEE-ENFIELD ISHAPORE 2A / 2A1

Post by jaeger45 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:23 am

This should be of interest to Ishapore owners, esp. in view of the ongoing discussion about using the commercial .308WIN in the Ishy.

I myself own an Ishapore, which is clearly marked B.F.I. RIFLE 7.62 mm 2A, 1965. INDIA . I have therefore stopped referring to it as "my .308 rifle."

KIMBER45 wrote:LEE-ENFIELD ISHAPORE 2A / 2A1
(B.F.I. RIFLE 7.62 mm 2A / 2A1)



The Lee-Enfield rifle was introduced in November 1895 as the .303 calibre, Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Enfield, or more commonly simply Magazine Lee-Enfield, or MLE (sometimes spoken as "emily").

A shorter and lighter version of the original MLE- the famous Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield, or SMLE (sometimes spoken as "Smelly")- was introduced in 1904, The SMLE's visual trademark was its blunt nose, the end of the barrel protruding a small fraction of an inch beyond the nosecap.

A close variant is the Rifle 7.62mm 2A / 2A1. Also known as the Ishapore 2A / 2A1, it is a 7.62x51 NATO calibre bolt-action rifle adopted as a reserve arm by the Indian military in 1963. Production of the rifle - initially the Rifle 7.62mm 2A - began at the Ishapore Rifle Factory in India, soon after the Sino-Indian War of 1962.

The Ishapore 2A was based upon (and is almost identical to) the .303 British calibre SMLE Mk III* rifle but reworked to use the 7.62x51 NATO round. Externally the rifle is very similar to the classic Mk III*, with the exception of the magazine- which is more "square" and usually carries twelve rounds instead of ten, although a number of 2A1s have been noted with 10 round magazines. Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifles are made with strengthened steel (to handle the increased pressures of the 7.62x51 round), and the extractor is redesigned to cope with the rimless round. From 1965-1975 (when production is believed to have been discontinued), the sights were changed from 2000 m to 800 m, and the rifle re-designated "Rifle 7.62mm 2A1".

There are no other differences between the Ishapore 2A and 2A1 rifles, but they are often incorrectly described as ".308 conversions". In fact, the 2A/2A1 rifles are not conversions of .303 calibre SMLE Mk III* rifles: they were designed and built right from the outset to fire 7.62x51 NATO ammunition. It should be noted that these weapons were not designed for use with commercial .308 Winchester ammunition - even though the rounds are physically interchangeable. Whilst some 2A/2A1 owners do shoot commercial .308 Winchester ammunition in their rifles without problems, it is a fact that some .308 Winchester cartridges generate significantly higher pressures than 7.62x51 NATO ammunition. For example, military 7.62 mm ammunition is loaded to a maximum average pressure of 50,000 PSI, whereas commercial .308 ammunition can have a SAAMI/ANSI maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI. This is a very significant difference. Whilst not every manufacturer loads .308 Winchester to this level, the chamber pressure of a particular batch of .308 ammunition can be difficult to determine. Therefore, anyone who insists on firing .308 Winchester ammunition through an Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifle is strongly advised to avoid the most powerful .308 Winchester loadings. Obviously, .308 Winchester ammunition which matches 7.62x51 NATO loadings should pose no problems. The simplest solution to this issue is to use 7.62x51 NATO ammunition exclusively. ***

The Ishapore 2A1 has the distinction of being the last military bolt action rifle ever designed and issued to an armed force (other than specialised sniper rifles), and they are becoming increasingly popular with civilian shooters and collectors in the US, UK, and Australia as the supplies of affordable .303 British ammunition fluctuate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_7.62mm_2A1

Ishapore 2A/2A1- the last Lee-Enfield

At some point just after the Sino-Indian War of 1962, the Ishapore Rifle Factory in India began producing a new type of rifle known as the Rifle 7.62 mm 2A, which was based on the SMLE Mk III* and was reworked to use the 7.62mm NATO round. Externally the rifle is very similar to the classic Mk III*, with the exception of the magazine, which is more "square" and usually carries twelve rounds instead of ten, although a number of 2A1s have been noted with 10-round magazines.

Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifles are made with strengthened steel (to handle the increased pressures of the 7.62mm NATO round), and the extractor is redesigned to cope with the rimless round. From 1965-1975 (when production is believed to have been discontinued), the sights were changed from 2000m *** to 800m, and the rifle re-designated Rifle 7.62 mm 2A1.

There are no other differences between the Ishapore 2A and 2A1 rifles, but they are often incorrectly described as ".308 conversions". The 2A/2A1 rifles are not conversions of .303 calibre SMLE Mk III* rifles - they are newly manufactured, and are not technically chambered for commercial .308 Winchester ammunition. However, many 2A/2A1 owners shoot such ammunition in their rifles with no problems, although it must be stressed .308 Winchester may generate higher pressures than 7.62mm NATO, even though the rounds are otherwise interchangeable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield

Notes:
***I have highlighted in red in the preceding paragraphs the significant differences between the cartridges 7.62 NATO and the .308WIN which is based on the .300 WIN Magnum cartridge. Although some sources, including certain sections in Wikipedia other than the above, state that the two cartridges are interchangeable and can be used in all rifles, I prefer to be conservative and err on the side of caution. Better safe than sorry and avoid becoming a statistic, I always say. I therefore cite only the authorities and statements that I agree with. Those who disagree can, of course, do what they want--- at their own risk. Tight extractions, ruptured primers, cracked cartridges are signs of excessive pressures experienced by shooters using the .308 WIN commercial loads in their 7.62 NATO-rated barrels. I'll go with them.

(1) I use 7.62 NATO military surplus ammo exclusively in my Ishapore.
Markings: B.F.I. RIFLE 7.62 mm 2A, 1965. INDIA

(2)*** The fly-leaf rear sight of my Ishy is graduated from 200 - 2,000 meters.

--Kimber45

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http://progunfilipino.20.forumer.com/vi ... .php?t=442
A bad shot is often caused by a loose nut behind the buttplate

jaeger45
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Post by jaeger45 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:30 am

I came across this old post here at the Bolt binding / Ishapore 7.62 Nato thread of the Rifle Section which first appeared on Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:38 am. This 2006 post of J Miller oviously has a direct bearing on my preceding post on the Ishapore rifle. BTW, I fired fifty rounds of 7.62 NATO Malaysian milsurp over the week-end in my Ishy. :D
J Miller wrote:Some years ago when they first hit the market I bought an Ishapore 2ANo4 Mk 1 in 7.62NATO. All numbers matched, including the magazine, and the bore was perfect.
OK, using NATO ammo it functions perfectly, and using reloads made to NATO specs it functions perfectly also.

However it has two quirks that bug me.

The first is that when cycling the bolt to chamber a fresh round it wants to bind or drag. Factory ammo or reloads, it doesn't matter. It does not do this empty. I haven't fired the rifle since '98 so I can't give any up to date examples.

The second is I get signs of excessive pressure when using American made commercial ball ammo, the stuff sold by Remington, and commercial soft point type ammo of any brand. Reloads made to 308 specs show even more pressure signs, althoug they do not exceed max specs in the manuals.
The pressure signs show up as difficulty in opening the bolt and occasional sticky extraction.

I know that 7.62 Military ball is loaded to less pressure and velocity than 308 commercial hunting type ammo, but it seems strange to me that this rifle is so sensitive. Many other posters on other forums have reported no such problems with their Ishapores. Only a few seem to have this problem.

When loading my own ammo I've hit on two loads that seem to prevent this. Both using Winchester 748 and 147 to 150gr bullets. One load for military brass, and one for commercial brass. Both of these loads are below the start loads for 308 Win ammo in the manuals.
Unfortunatly nobody shows any load data that matches 7.62 ball specs.

Anyway, does anybody here have any ideas of how to cure the binding or dragging bolt? And why this thing seems to be so pressure sensitive?

Thanks,

Joe
Bullseye wrote:Joe,

How do your primers look in the suspected excessive pressure cases?

How does the external surface of the suspected excessive pressure cases look?

A dragging bolt can be a sign of excessive case pressure or a rough chamber surface.

R,
Bullseye
http://guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=197
A bad shot is often caused by a loose nut behind the buttplate

jaeger45
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Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:02 pm
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Post by jaeger45 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:53 pm

SCOPE MOUNT FOR LEE-ENFIELD "ISHAPORE"

My eyes not being what they used to be, I want to make my trip to the range a pleasant experience rather than an exercise in frustration.

I want to mount a scope on my Lee-Enfield "Ishapore" rifle, cal. 7.62 NATO. (Traditionally, it's referred to as caliber .308, to distinguish it from the other Lee-Enfield caliber .303. Made in Ishapore, India, it's stamped "7.62mm NATO" on the receiver, so I will refer to its caliber as such.)

Would anybody be aware of, or more importantly perhaps, have any experience with an after-market scope mount that can possibly be used for my Enfield? The rear sight is on the barrel.

I saw one at Cheaperthandirt which MIGHT do the job, but the eye relief would be a lo-oo-oonng one it seems, so I don't know...
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SKM1370-63655-2871.html

I'll appreciate your inputs. Thanks.
A bad shot is often caused by a loose nut behind the buttplate

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