1911 newb with questions!

[Cerebral]

Hey guys, I have a few question about a Les Baer Hardball. Obviously given the cost of the pistol I feel pretty confident that everything is working as intended -- but hey, it does have a 1 year warranty so I may as well knit-pick.

aside from the factory exactly 250 rounds have been through it, and I'm already getting this bluing wear where the flat of the bluing starts on the top rear portion of the ejection port. Heres a pic:

This only bothers me if it isn't normal to have this magnitude of wear after 250 rounds. So is this normal?

Second question: The spent cartridges seem to come out very grimy, is this normal for a 1911?

Now i've just got some general care and use questions:
Will dry firing this pistol harm it? If it will harm it do dummy rounds help? How often should I clean it, I hear 1911s are more accurate with a dirty barrel is this true? Lastly, for a gun intended to be used for LEG matches what is the best way to chamber a round, slide release or all the way back.

Thank you!

[Bullseye]

Welcome to Guntalk-Online!

I was attempting to see the worn area better on that pistol slide but I cannot make it out. It would be better if you could post another picture with a closer view that blued area.

Is the bluing really worn or is that just a brass mark from ejected cases striking the slide? That mark is just above the slide scallop, a relief cut made to enhance case rotation and ejection. How do the spent cases look? Are any of them dented on the side? Where are the empties landing after ejection?

Dry firing generally doesn't harm a 1911 style pistol. These pistols have free-floating firing pins. Unless the firing pin return spring is weakened there's little chance of damaging the firing pin. You can periodically remove the pin and inspect it for signs of damage from a weakened spring. A sign of pin damage would be a shiny ring down the tapered pin, where the pin is striking the pin hole in the breech face. I have dry fired millions of shots and never encountered a damaged firing pin in any of my 1911s.

Cleaning depends mainly on how the pistol functions. A new match pistol may need cleaning more frequently than a rack grade pistol because the internal tolerances are a lot tighter for accuracy. If you start having cycling problems, then it's time for a cleaning. You can run a brush and patch down the barrel without tearing the pistol down for a deep cleaning. One way to clean the chamber is to run it down the barrel then rotate it several times when it is in the chamber area. Be very careful to keep the cleaning rod away from the barrel crown (muzzle end) when you clean it. Otherwise you could damage the crown's sensitive chamfered edge and effect your pistol's accuracy. I use a brass cleaning rod bore guide when I clean from the muzzle end of the pistol. The bore guide keeps the rod centered in the bore and protects the crown.

1911's are more accurate with a dirty (fouled) barrel due to a consistency of conditions on the projectile. Not because the barrel's dirty but because after the first 10 shots or so the barrel is normally operating in a fouled condition. The first shots from a clean barrel will always be off zero due to less barrel resistance on the projectile - even more pronounced if the barrel was oiled after cleaning. This phenomenon is even more apparent from the long line (50 yards) in a bullseye or EIC match. The first shots from a clean barrel typically go out to the 6 or 7 ring at 10 o'clock at 50 yards. An inexperienced shooter will adjust their sights to chase the hits and then wonder what's happening as the barrel fouls and the shots gradually wander back to the original zero. Even worse, they'll realize that the sights at the end of the 50 yard line are now right back at the original zero settings, before they started monkeying with the adjustments chasing their shots on target. Fouling is the reason and consistency is the key.

I do not advocate using the slide release to close the slide on a 1911. Even though both the slide stop and the slide are hardened metal parts, they can wear over time from repeated use in this manner, causing slide lock failures. I use a slingshot method. This is accomplished by grabbing the slide over the top with my left hand and pulling the slide back slightly and letting go. The tension on the slide stop is released, dropping it and allowing the slide go home into battery. This method is most like what happens normally during the firing sequence.

Enjoy that new pistol. You haven't even broken it in yet. Give it about 1,500 rounds before you start worrying too much about functioning issues.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[Cerebral]

Heres another close up of the same area:



And heres another picture of the same area after a 15minute scrubbing with a tooth brush:

I think you were spot on about it being brass. The picture makes it looked like it cleaned up a lot better than it did but a lot did come off. Any suggestions on how to get the rest off?

Here is a picture of one of the spent casings (polished):

I am not sure if you can notice but there is a small scratch on the side of the cartridge. This seems to appear on most of the cartridges, and it is always just a little bit above the extractor mark. I think this mark comes from hitting the one of the hard edges more inside the slide after the case hits the ejector though. But I thought it was worth mentioning. They usually land straight to the side but some do go a little back or a little forwards every now and then.

Thanks very much for the advice. I've been enjoying it so much Shoots awesome, the test group was a 2" 10 shot group at 50yrds, I was kinda surprised because the pistol was only guaranteed for 3". I know what you are saying about it not being broke in First trip to the range I couldn't even rack the slide from battery without breaking a sweat.

[Bullseye]

Upon closer inspection it does appear to be brass residue. You can try using some Hoppes solvent applied to a cloth patch on that spot and that should help it clean up better. The pistol is not ejecting fully but you should hold off on any corrective action, since your pistol is still new and tight. After it loosens up some, that energy that is being sapped off by friction should be strong enough to cause a normal ejection sequence. The spent cases should end up back and to the right. Straight or forward is typically a weak ejection cycle. Like I said not a problem for now, just run some more rounds though it. The tightness is why you're seeing excellent accuracy down range.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

I put 160 more rounds through the pistol yesterday. This time more of the spent cases did go back and right. I only noticed a couple that went to the right and forwards a little. But the cases appear to still be hitting that portion of the slide. I cleaned almost all of it off now it's all back The spent cases seemed to come out cleaner out of it when it is dirty, it hadn't been cleaned in around 170 rounds.

The way it groups down range, I'm not at all concerned with this, however I am curious near the crown of the barrel where all the bushing wear is it appears to be uneven. There is wear around this whole portion, however it is uneven. If you hold the barrel straight up you can notice that the wear slants off diagonally and looks different in various sections. I know LB makes their own parts, so it just made me wonder if the variations from batch to batch on the parts were enough to force the same pistol smith to fit each barrel/bushing differently? or does the wear pattern have more to do with the style/technique that the pistol smith uses to mate the parts?

Thanks.

[Bullseye]

As your pistol wears in more, less recoil energy will be absorbed by friction and the empties will hit the ejector with more force. The empties will fly off of the extractor and get kicked back to the right more frequently as the pistol breaks in. Again, around 1,000 - 1,500 rounds and your new pistol should be broken in.

No worries on the uneven wear. Your barrel is fitted to the bushing and the slide. The three components have to be carefully matched with each other to prevent accuracy problems. Because the barrel tilts to lock and unlock in the lugs, the wear pattern on the front (wide) end of the barrel will not necessarily be even. The big thing that must be avoided is barrel springing, this means that the rear end barrel is not able to completely rotate up into the locking lugs because the front is binding on the bushing. This lack of movement puts tension on the barrel and causes it to bend as the rear portion is forced up into the slide's locking lugs. The barrel bushing has to be precisely relieved on the top inner and the outer front radius edges to prevent binding tension and barrel springing in lock up. This is why you're seeing an uneven wear pattern and it is normal. Accuracy and lock up are the key ingredients to a good match quality 1911 pistol.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

Thanks for the reply. I find the mechanical respects of this hobby very interesting. Sometime after I understand firearms a lot better and have the extra cash I'd like to take some smithing classes and buy some equipment but that is a good ways off. I really enjoying reading stuff about the technical aspect of firearms from someone whom actually does it, such as yourself. Even though it makes perfect sense I never would have guessed as to wear the space was made for the barrel to make the needed motion while cycling and yet allow the barrel to still consistently lock up. Shows me how much I still have to learn.

I think this will be my last question for awhile On a match 1911 how often do you recommend I detail strip the frame internals for cleaning?

[Bullseye]

In the break in period I tear down the pistol a lot. This has two purposes; one to clean out any metal shavings from wear, and two to reduce friction on the moving components further by removing any firing residues. Also this is a good way to inspect for any signs of unusual wear. You've obviously been doing that already by the nature of you previous question. I also recommend using plenty of lubricating oil during the break in period. Generously lube the frame and slide rails, the barrel locking lugs, and the area of the barrel where the bushing slides. Try to avoid getting oil onto the hammer and sear engagement areas. The lube will help keep friction to a minimum and make the pistol's operation smoother. The downside is the extra oil will also attract more residue, requiring more frequent cleanings.

Take care when removing the barrel and barrel bushing. The bushing is tightly fitted to the slide and a bushing wrench is an essential tool for removing and installing a match barrel bushing. When I remove the barrel, I take the entire slide; barrel, bushing, recoil spring, spring plug, spring guide and all, off of the frame. As I move the slide assembly forward, I wrap my left hand over the top of the slide, thumb forward. Then I wrap my fingers around the slide under to hold the recoil spring and spring guide in place. Next, I carefully slide the recoil spring guide and spring out of the slide assembly. Then I use the bushing wrench to rotate the bushing CW and remove the spring plug. Then I rotate the barrel bushing CCW to remove it. After the bushing lug is visible, I invert the slide, grasp the end of the barrel with my fingers and use it to tap out the bushing from inside the slide. I use a gentle tapping motion, sliding the barrel back and forth like an autobody dent puller. Keep the barrel's locking lugs aligned with the slide's spring plug hood as to not damage the barrel lugs. This method of barrel removal will reduce the chance of damaging the bushing or the fit between it and the slide.

Asking questions about the interaction of the 1911's dynamic components is a good way to learn about how the firearm operates. The 1911 truly is a work of art. Even more so when one considers that it was one of the pioneers of autoloading pistol technology in its time. The simplicity and completeness of the 1911 pistol's design is a tribute to the genius of its designer, JM Browning.

You know I don't mind answering questions, so keep them coming if the mood strikes. My goal has always been to promote the shooting sports, and if people learn to appreciate the tools of this sport better, they'll go out and use them more.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

That is how I've been field stripping it. When i got it home it was kinda funny trying to get the barrel bush off. Every guide I read said "rotate barrel bushing CCW and slide out" well mine didn't slide It was only after i read the field strip manual from LB that I read about the method you described

Heres another question I thought of, I should have mentioned it earlier. The barrel bushing tends to stay a bit off the frame instead of flush, and it tends to lean a tad bit more to one side. I assume this is where some of the uneven wear comes from. It will drift off like this even when I rack the slide slowly making sure not to let it drop on its self. Heres a picture:



You and everyone here do a very good job of making your goal a reality. What I've learned the past year on this forum has given me a lot of knowledge and confidence that I otherwise wouldn't have, and it has given me the ability yo pass on the same confidence and knowledge to others.

[Bullseye]

I can see from that picture that the bushing does seem to favor to the left side of the slide. This would definitely make the barrel wear a little heavier on the left. But like you said earlier, this offset isn't affecting the pistol's accuracy.

The bushing sticking up a bit is likely from them squaring/dressing the end of the slide with the mill. Again not a problem, the bushing is a solid fit in the slide and is indexed off of the bushing lug.

I'm glad that disassembly procedure was in the Baer manual. I see way too many bushings hacked up because some one didn't use a bushing wrench and ruined the lock up.

How far are you shooting that pistol? Looking at the first picture, that rear sight appears to be set rather high in the base.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

Heres some pics of the left and right side of the barrel.

Left side (that stray tool mark is from the factory not me):


Right side:


And here is the test print @ 50yrds:


I've been shooting 15yrds with a sub 6 hold. Trying to get used to the 4lb pull one handed is a lot different than a 2 1/2lb.

I think I may give Les Baer a call after it's broken in just to see if this is normal on their pistols or not.

[Bullseye]

Looks like normal wear to me. That angled polished ring mark is from when the rear of the barrel is tilted upwards into the locking lugs. The end of the barrel is slightly flared to create a tight fit when the bushing is all the way out at the end of the barrel. When the slide moves rearwards, the barrel unlocks from the lugs and swivels downward. The bushing slides rearward and the barrel's outer diameter tapers smaller a few fractions of an inch later to reduce friction. As the slide moves farther rearward, the barrel diameter is even thinner and the bushing is barely touching it through the rest of the ejection/charging cycle. When the bushing is again out near the end of the barrel the diameter increases keeping the barrel alignment position consistent from shot to shot. And that is largely where the accuracy comes from in a match grade 1911.

If you want you can actually feel the difference by taking the barrel and bushing out of the slide and then moving them by hand back and forth. You will definitely feel the bushing grab tighter as it approaches the muzzle of the barrel.

15 yards explains the rear elevation.

R,
Bullseye

[Georgezilla]

Heres a picture of the top of the barrel, you can tell the wear slants off in this one:


My only concern about this is that when I put the barrel bushing on after a field strip it sits normal until I rack the slide a couple times. I'm a little worried that this could cause uneven wear because the bushing has to settle for itself. Should I be concerned about that?

[Bullseye]

That's normal wear. Keep it well lubed out were the bell of the barrel is and the wear will take care of itself. I take a few drops of oil on the tip of my index finger, lock the slide open, and then swipe it around the end of the barrel were the bushing sits. It'll be fine. You just have a tight lock up.

R,
Bullseye

[Bullseye]

George,

I saw this today, Les Baer Premier. While not a great picture, there's the same type of "angled ring" bushing wear marking on the end of the barrel of that pistol too. Plus in the second picture, there is an identical brass hit marking above the ejection port scallop. I just wanted to ease your concerns, and find another example that demonstrates this is acceptable wear for your new LB hardball match pistol.

R,
Bullseye