Conventional pistol

[Dave C.]

Are there any active conventional pistol shooters here?

[Bullseye]

Welcome Dave,

I am a Distinguished Pistol shot and active NRA Conventional pistol shooter.

I believe there are a few other members who are Conventional pistol shooters, Stork is one that I know for sure. Many other people are shooting in local leagues and not getting out to the Regional, State, or National competitions.

I see you've been around the block or two. Your insight will be very welcome here as there are also several people who're relatively new to shooting. They have a thirst for knowledge on how to improve their performance.

Welcome again.

R,
Bullseye

[stork]

Bullseye,
First & foremost nice site, thanks for the offer to sustain us MKII junkies in the event of a MKii.org shutdown.

Dave,
As Bullseye mentioned I am an active conventional shooter in ND. I am a distinguished expert hovering around 94.1-94.7%, I just can't keep the 45/centerfire scores on the same plateau as the 22. Primarily because I have a Kart barrel on my wad gun that just will not shoot lead at 50 yds. I've been messing with Star 185's, hand cast H&G 68's both bb and flat base, different powders BE, WST, Solo 1000, Clays, and crimp everywhere from .463 to .470. It just won't shoot better than 3" with most groups around 5". I tried Nostler 185's last fall with 4.3 gr WST and finally got a consistent 1 1/2" by 1 3/4" 10 shot group. I also had my 45 re-tightened up this spring (I've got about 24,000 rds through it) which helped if only in my mind. The Master class is around the corner if I can keep my head together.

FWIW
Stork

[Guest]

Bullseye ,
Thanks for the new site ! I'm not a conventional pistol shooter yet but am working towards that end . I hope to be in my first 22 league this winter . In regaurds to the 45 , could a person buy or have built a gun that would pass for a hardball gun , yet change a spring and be succsessful with it as a wad gun . I realize that you would be sacrificing a 1/2 # trigger pull . Or is this just not a good idea ? I suppose it would be best to start with a wad gun that was used . Would it be worth starting with a springfield mil spec for 500.00 and getting the trigger and target sights put on to start and accurizing later as I could afford ? The only other possible purpose for the gun ever would be to carry along in the grouse woods as it seems to be getting more dangerous here every year . Thanks for any advice !

[Ruffchaser]

Sorry ,
Didnt log in before last post .

[Bullseye]

Bullseye ,
Thanks for the new site ! I'm not a conventional pistol shooter yet but am working towards that end . I hope to be in my first 22 league this winter . In regaurds to the 45 , could a person buy or have built a gun that would pass for a hardball gun , yet change a spring and be succsessful with it as a wad gun . I realize that you would be sacrificing a 1/2 # trigger pull . Or is this just not a good idea ? I suppose it would be best to start with a wad gun that was used . Would it be worth starting with a springfield mil spec for 500.00 and getting the trigger and target sights put on to start and accurizing later as I could afford ? The only other possible purpose for the gun ever would be to carry along in the grouse woods as it seems to be getting more dangerous here every year . Thanks for any advice !

Sure you can use a ball gun to shoot wadcutters by changing the springs. I've done it many times. The key is having a ball gun with a good chamber throating job on it, so it will feed wadcutter ammo reliably. Changing the springs to a lighter weight works just fine. My hadrball gun shoots wads just a well as ball; in a nice tight little knot down range.

Also, you'll need a pair of wadcutter magazines. The feed lips on these are cut so they release the back of the cartridge a little sooner than ball magazines do. The flatter nose on the wadcutter (or really semi-wadcutter) bullet requires a quicker release, or the nose will get jammed up in the top of the barrel hood.

The first ball gun I personally owned was a Colt series 80. Had it built special way back then, long before I started building them myself. It has around 200K rounds through it and it still shoots great. I should put a barrel in it soon though, not much rifling left in that old pipe. But as long as it keeps throwing them down the middle, I'll just wait until it completely wears out.

Sacrificing a half a pound of trigger weight is no big deal. You'll just need to put a little more "initial pressure" on the trigger and it'll break all the same.

I've been building my pistols on Caspian frames and slides, but Springfield is a great gun to use for a Hard ball base gun. Rails are pretty true and the billet is nice and hard. Kart NM barrels are relatively inexpensive and they shoot great. You'll need a good set of Bo-Mar sights. I recommend having the front one dovetailed in to the slide. Can't tell you how many front sights I've shot off of pistols in matches. Boy, does that suck when you look down the barrel for the front sight and all you find is the curve of the top of the slide. I'd also low mount the rear sight to keep the front one from being hugely tall - like a shark fin. I'd also go with a parkerized finish, this is one that can be applied very easily by almost anyone. Parkerizing is a really a good choice if you plan to build as you go.

Your match pistol won't make a good carry gun. The hammer and sear are not cut to be dragged around in a holster. Better to get another dedicated pistol for carrying out in the field. Preferrably one you don't mind getting beat up a little. Match guns are built to very tight specifications, a little dirt and they won't function properly. They're made to be taken out of the pistol box and shot. A target range is relatively sterile environment, unlike what's typically out in the field.

Hope this helps with your decision.

R,
Bullseye

[Ruffchaser]

Hey Bullseye ,
Thanks alot for such good advice , a person can be overwhelmed by " you need this or that " . People who have alot of experience , like yourself in both shooting the sport and building the guns are irreplaceable . I thank your family for getting you the website !

[Bullseye]

Hey Bullseye ,
Thanks alot for such good advice , a person can be overwhelmed by " you need this or that " . People who have alot of experience , like yourself in both shooting the sport and building the guns are irreplaceable . I thank your family for getting you the website !

Your very welcome!

I'll be sure and thank them. They know I like the gift because I'm constantly using it.

I can post a comparison photo of magazines if I was not totally clear on the differences between a wadcutter and a ball mag's feed lips. Just let me know.

A lot of people who are into shooting seriously, gravitate towards making equipment. Kind of a natural progression, those who use it, know what it's lacking, and can build a better mousetrap.

R,
Bullseye

[Dave C.]

Stork:

You have one major obstacle holding you back. That is yourself.
Read your post and you will see that you have placed at least two
stumbling blocks in your path, they are:
“I just can't keep the 45/centerfire scores on the same plateau
as the 22.”
You need to say to yourself that “I can shoot my 45 as well as my 22.”
And stop using the word “plateau”.
Look your match scores over and see where there is an opportunity to pick.
up points. This is the part you need to focus more attention on during
training.
List your goals on a piece of paper. Then on the same piece of paper write the
actions you need to do to move closer to your goal. Such as dry fire at least X
number of minutes X times a week. Work on making your grip stronger, ect.

Dave C.

[stork]

Dave,
I should have rephrased my comment “I just can't keep the 45/centerfire scores on the same plateau as the 22.” Before finding the load with the nostlers my 45 could not shoot with my 22. I use a MK II 5 1/2" which will group a consistent 1 1/2" @50yds with several ammo types. The 45 would not consistently group under 5" @50 yards (ALL loads ransom tested). When the 22 will outshoot the 45 by a factor of 70% it is not just a matter of 'I can't', it is more a matter of the pistol can't, just because of the natural dispersion of the group.

My short line scores are fine with both 22 and 45. TF are usually 195-198, RF 192-198. My area of work has been slow fire. I have been concentrating on that for a couple of years now and have seen my SF scores creep slowly upwards. Some of the advance has been shelving my Hi Stnd's and reverting back to the MK II. It just seems to fit better.

I kept track of my practice scores on both pistols for over a year and found I was consistently scoring 3-8 points higher in slow fires with the Ruger. My TF & RF scores stayed the same with either, but the x count was always higher with the HS's. I attribute that to the slightly heavier LSP bbl and a better trigger on the HS. It recovers a little faster due to slightly less muzzle flip.

At this stage it is pretty much a mental game and occasionally I go into a match with the jitters and wind up tanking the first couple of slow fires. It is something that is a work in progress.

FWIW

Stork

[wlambert]

Bullseye, very nice sight. I am enjoying it already.

I shoot conventional pistol. At 62, I am afraid I got a late start, but I am really having fun. This is my second year shooting in local leagues. I started shooting 2700 matches this summer and will be shooting my third match this Sunday. I shot a 2477 in my first match and a 2542 in the second. I'm lucky in that I actually seem to shoot better during a match. My expert card should arive any day.

I'm shooting a MK512 for 22 and shot an 867 last match. That was with Winchester Dyna Points. Yep, I'm cheap.

I shoot a Rock River with Lyman 200 gr Semi Wad cutters on top of 4.2 gr of Bullseye.

I just got a Ransom Rest, a big assortment of 22's from Midway, and a box of Federal Gold Match 45ACP's. As soon as I get an opportunity, I am going to take a day off and drag all my stuff to the club and see what is going on at 50 yards. I think my equipment is working pretty well already, but inquiring minds want to know.

Stork, what makes one "distinguished"? Does that have something to do with the number of matches you have shot or won. Is that what they are talking about with distinguished pistol or revolver matches?

I love this stuff.

wlambert

[Bullseye]

Welcome wlambert.

Sounds like you're getting off to a fine start with Conventional Pistol. I love the 3 gun. I shoot a Model 41 for the Rimfire, a 1911 Wad gun for Centerfire, and a 1911 for .45. All three use red dot scopes, my eyes are getting old and not focusing as well as they used to when I was younger. Still shoot the iron sights but it's getting tougher.

I'll let stork describe becoming Distinguished. I want to stimulate conversation among the members not answer all of it myself.

R,
Bullseye

[Guest]

Wlambert,
Getting Distinguished or"legging out"as it is also known, is the accumulation of 30 points in "EIC" or "Leg" matches. It doesn't have anything to do with the number of matches or how long you have been shooting. I know guys who have been shooting Bullseye for 25 years and have not yet gotten Distinguished. I "legged out" in 2004 and was number #1298. That means at that time 1298 shooters have become "Distinguished Shooters since the late 1800's (don't know exactly when it started)
Here is a Description that Brian David wrote about it on the Bullseye List last year when I "legged out".

"Distinguished Pistol Shot Badge is the highest honor a civilian/military Service pistol shooter can acheive. This is awarded by the CMP(civilian marksmanship program)or once called DCM (director of civilian
marksmanship) previously. Contact them for more info on where to find these "ball matches" or there is always lots of info about Service pistols , rules, matches, etc. in the archives of this list. Basicly you need to amass 30 points to become "Distinguished" . Awards are 10 points for 1st, 8 points for 2nd, and 6 points for a 3rd place, but when shot at a large match, they award more then just those 3 people with
points."

It is a 30 shot, open sights only, match broken into 10 rds slow fire, 10 rds Timed Fire and 10 rds Rapid Fire. It must be shot with a 1911 in 45 cal and 230 gr FMJ ammo, or a Beretta 92 or clone with 115-147gr FMJ ammo. I can't speak to the exact requirements for the Beretta, but visually, the 45 must be a very close copy of the 1911 used by the US Armed Forces. It may have after market adjustable sights(no rib sights), checkered grip strap, and a match trigger. Other than that there is very little that can be done exterior wise. Ther can be no visible modifications like screw holes, ambidextrous safeties, beavertail grip safeties, extended slide releases or extended safetiess.

Interior wise it is a different story. You can have a match barrel, usually either Kart or Bar-sto. Match trigger, the slide to frame fit can be match fitted, the trigger must be at least 4 1/2#. Most 45 match ammo must be loaded to at least 820 fps in order for the round nose bullet to remain stabilized at 50 yards.

I have gone through a lot of testing with my Ransom Rest with 4 or 5 Ruger MK II's now. Every one of them has shot those cheap Dynapoints into less than 2" groups at 50 yards, most of them into 1 1/2" groups. They are good enough that I would shoot them exclusively except I get a dud every 500-1000 rds and Murphy's law says that the dud is going to happen at an important match durring Rapid Fire.

Another good ammo is Aquila standard velocity. I'm presently using that for all the matches. It shoots around 1 1/4"-1 1/2" groups and I have never had a dud with it. If I ever do I may rethink using it. I have also had very good reliability with CCI standard velocity blue box. I can't remember ever having a dud with it, but it doesn't group quite as good as the Aquila.

Distinguished Revolver is a new classification to become distinguished with an unmodified 38 cal revolver using 158 gr RN or SWC factory ammo.

There's probably a lot more that didn't occur to me but it can be added later.

FWIW

Stork

[stork]

Sorry Guys!
Forgot to log in before posting.

Stork

[That's OK, I finally figured out how to prevent that from happening and if you hadn't posted that message I wouldn't have figured it out. Up until that posting, only people in the process of registering had guest names. You were already registered, and that clued me in to what was happening. - Thanks Bullseye]

[Bullseye]

Great post Stork.

Not all Distinguished shooters have numbers, only those who've earned Distinguished status from the CMP as a civilan marksman. Stork's #1298 doesn't actually mean only 1297 shooters had earned distinguished badges before him. Military members also become distinguished shooters and they do not receive CMP registration numbers, so they're not counted in the overall CMP registration numbers.

There's a semi-complete list on the CMP website of all the distinguished shooters they've recorded - the list is ever changing.

Here's a little more info on how badges are awarded through Excellence in Competition (EIC) matches.



For example, this is what it breaks down as,

If 60 non-distinguisned shooters compete in an EIC match:

6 top competitors are awarded EIC points.

• 1 gets a gold medal - 10 points
• 2 get silver medals - 8 points
• 3 get bronze medals - 6 points

More information can be found at the CMP website.

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions.htm

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye