I'm going to Lake Tahoe, Nev this season for deer. However, bear droppings had been seen so that though I shoot a .45 at the range, l'll be packing my .357 SW as bear medicine.
What's a good load for the .357 for bear?
BEAR LOAD FOR .357
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jaeger45
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BEAR LOAD FOR .357
A bad shot is often caused by a loose nut behind the buttplate
Have fun in Tahoe. The last time I was in Yosemite my camp site experienced a close encounter with a bear. Fortunately, no one saw it but it was about 100 yards away in a nearby stream bed below our campsite. We heard some splashing around late at night and the next day found fresh bear droppings. Good food container management kept that situation from becoming a more personal visit. We were of course, well armed and a squad of marauding bears would have had a tough time overrunning our camp.
I suggest using factory ammo for this type of senario, no reason to risk a chance of a misfire with reloads.
R,
Bullseye
I suggest using factory ammo for this type of senario, no reason to risk a chance of a misfire with reloads.
R,
Bullseye
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jaeger45
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******* camp site experienced a close encounter with a bear. Fortunately, no one saw it but it was about 100 yards away in a nearby stream bed below our campsite. We heard some splashing around late at night and the next day found fresh bear droppings. Good food container management kept that situation from becoming a more personal visit. We were of course, well armed and a squad of marauding bears would have had a tough time overrunning our camp. ====================
Hi, Bullseye-
In the case of marauding bear/s at night, one's course of action seems to be clear-cut. But how does the law look at it? Does the evidence have to be clear-cut that it was in "defense of one's life" before a human bean can shoot, or wait until the intruder has wrought such devastation before squeeezing the trigger to ensure "preponderance of evidence" justifies such action? Though I'll be in the company of seasoned hunters, I would just like to hear from you/others.
Hi, Bullseye-
In the case of marauding bear/s at night, one's course of action seems to be clear-cut. But how does the law look at it? Does the evidence have to be clear-cut that it was in "defense of one's life" before a human bean can shoot, or wait until the intruder has wrought such devastation before squeeezing the trigger to ensure "preponderance of evidence" justifies such action? Though I'll be in the company of seasoned hunters, I would just like to hear from you/others.
A bad shot is often caused by a loose nut behind the buttplate
My near encounter happened almost twenty years ago and the rules for shooting on federal park and BLM lands were a lot different back then. Since I left CA nearly ten years ago, I haven't kept up on the hunting/shooting laws. Like you, if the real deal happend, I'd deal with it then settle with the law after preserving mine and my campmates lives. I wouldn't take a bear for merely foraging, but any aggressive moves and I'd dispatch him. Bears are incredibly fast and deceptively slow looking, so I wouldn't hesitate at the first sign of aggression. Sorry I don't have a better answer for you than this.
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye
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jaeger45
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My near encounter happened almost twenty years ago and the rules for shooting on federal park and BLM lands were a lot different back then. Since I left CA nearly ten years ago, I haven't kept up on the hunting/shooting laws. Like you, if the real deal happend, I'd deal with it then settle with the law after preserving mine and my campmates lives. I wouldn't take a bear for merely foraging, but any aggressive moves and I'd dispatch him. Bears are incredibly fast and deceptively slow looking, so I wouldn't hesitate at the first sign of aggression. Sorry I don't have a better answer for you than this.
===================
I read you loud and clear, Bullseye. We're in the same frequency.
Nobody can give any better answer than that.
===================
I read you loud and clear, Bullseye. We're in the same frequency.
Nobody can give any better answer than that.
A bad shot is often caused by a loose nut behind the buttplate
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allendavis
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Bear Loads for .357 Magnum
Dude, you need more gun.
There simply is NO LOAD for the .357 Magnum for bear unless you're extremely lucky and believe a bunch of bullshit from some medicore gunwriters from the mid-1960s.
I'm an older guy who is the son of an even older guy who shot a medium-sized black bear sqaure in the chest with an extremely high-powered .357 Mag. load, and all it did was piss the bear off. It took a .30-06 from my Dad's best friend to put the beast down.
If it's a black bear you're talking about, then nothing short of the .41 Magnum is called for, and I've killed many a wild pig with that, and some of those things can be as tenacious as bears.
Please forget about the .357 Mag. as anti-bear repellant or as a bear-killer. Buy a .41 Magnum (or bigger) bear killer.
I wouldn't use the .357 Mag. except for killing the smaller wild pigs I hunt.
Just from experience, that's my two cents' worth.
Allen
There simply is NO LOAD for the .357 Magnum for bear unless you're extremely lucky and believe a bunch of bullshit from some medicore gunwriters from the mid-1960s.
I'm an older guy who is the son of an even older guy who shot a medium-sized black bear sqaure in the chest with an extremely high-powered .357 Mag. load, and all it did was piss the bear off. It took a .30-06 from my Dad's best friend to put the beast down.
If it's a black bear you're talking about, then nothing short of the .41 Magnum is called for, and I've killed many a wild pig with that, and some of those things can be as tenacious as bears.
Please forget about the .357 Mag. as anti-bear repellant or as a bear-killer. Buy a .41 Magnum (or bigger) bear killer.
I wouldn't use the .357 Mag. except for killing the smaller wild pigs I hunt.
Just from experience, that's my two cents' worth.
Allen
Well, I kind of agree, the .357 Mag is kinda light for bear, but if your loading for it, you can "up" your odds somewhat if that's all you have.
Heavier softpoints would work best in that situation as penetration with the .357 would be a higher requirement. Bullet weights in the 170 & 180gr. range would work well. Loads using heavier match bullets, or a hard cast gaschecked round would have ample power, even out of a .357 mag, to penetrate the chest cavity, or head, and do plenty of damage at closer ranges.
Federal also produces a heavier softpoint round which is commercially available.
With handloading, newer powders like Hodgdon's Lil' Gun offer higher velocities while still working within safe pressure limits.
Like I said, the .357 wouldn't be my first choice, but if that's all I had, with the proper ammo, it can be made to work. I carried one on duty for many, many years and killed everything from opossums and skunks to dangerous bulls at the livestock auction.
Bullet placement with any gun, as usual, is always key.
Take care,
Bob
Heavier softpoints would work best in that situation as penetration with the .357 would be a higher requirement. Bullet weights in the 170 & 180gr. range would work well. Loads using heavier match bullets, or a hard cast gaschecked round would have ample power, even out of a .357 mag, to penetrate the chest cavity, or head, and do plenty of damage at closer ranges.
Federal also produces a heavier softpoint round which is commercially available.
With handloading, newer powders like Hodgdon's Lil' Gun offer higher velocities while still working within safe pressure limits.
Like I said, the .357 wouldn't be my first choice, but if that's all I had, with the proper ammo, it can be made to work. I carried one on duty for many, many years and killed everything from opossums and skunks to dangerous bulls at the livestock auction.
Bullet placement with any gun, as usual, is always key.
Take care,
Bob
Do illiterate people get the full effect of alphabet soup ?
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allendavis
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Bob wrote:
I had a close call about 25 years ago against a very tenacious wild boar one year when I got overly-cocky and left my trusty .41 Mag. Old Model Ruger Blackhawk at home and decided to trust the new-fangled Hornady TMJ bullet in my .45 ACP 1911. It took eight bullets to put down a 440-lb. pig with tusks that were just 1/16" shy of the Boone & Crocket Record Book, and this sow began charging at me from 45 yards. She dropped less than 10 feet from me. I had managed to slip a bullet through her eye socket and into her brain. I later recovered 7 bullets under her skin on her rump, and I had hit her in the head with EVERY shot!
I went back to the .41 Mag. and have never experienced anything but one-shot kills, and almost all have been instant.
I have carried a .357 on duty, but I also supervised the transition of a rural Sheriff's Department in Kentucky from their wheel-guns to the semi-auto back in the late 1970s. I carried a 1911 in .45 ACP, cocked-n-locked. Most of the older guys back then followed my example. Most of the whippersnappers who were more my contemporaries at the time went with the hi-capacity 9mm pistols. And after a couple of years, half of those guys migrated to the 1911 as well. Just to finish this digression, I got to pay a visit to my old department a few years ago and wanted to break into tears to learn the old-timers were gone, and my former contemporaries and all the newcomers were all packing tupperware sissy pistols in either 9mm or the (neither fish-nor-fowl) .40 S&W. (I'm sorry, but I just don't care for that cartridge.)
In addition, I will admit that I often carry a 9mm sissy pistol: the Hi-Power, but only because it's lighter and easier to conceal than my full-size 1911. And my Hi-Power shoots 1-inch groups at 25 yards, so the accuracy makes up for the 9mm Europellet.
Them's my two cents' worth. Thanks for the reply, Bob.
Allen
I have to beg to differ with you on this point, hoss. While I have no experience with the powders you list later on in your message, I know that the heavier the bullet, the harder it is to keep it up-to-speed, and bears are tough to penetrate as it is, and powder capacity in a .357 case is quite limited. If you can get your .357 bullet to travel at 1,350-1,400 or even higher, then I'd say you might stand a chance against an enraged bear.Well, I kind of agree, the .357 Mag is kinda light for bear, but if your loading for it, you can "up" your odds somewhat if that's all you have.
Heavier softpoints would work best in that situation as penetration with the .357 would be a higher requirement. Bullet weights in the 170 & 180gr. range would work well.
My limited experience at shooting bears has taught me that it is a tough job to penetrate a bear's body even with a high velocity bullet, and I'm a solid, longtime member of the old "big-bore" school of thought.Loads using heavier match bullets, or a hard cast gaschecked round would have ample power, even out of a .357 mag, to penetrate the chest cavity, or head, and do plenty of damage at closer ranges.
Federal also produces a heavier softpoint round which is commercially available.
I had a close call about 25 years ago against a very tenacious wild boar one year when I got overly-cocky and left my trusty .41 Mag. Old Model Ruger Blackhawk at home and decided to trust the new-fangled Hornady TMJ bullet in my .45 ACP 1911. It took eight bullets to put down a 440-lb. pig with tusks that were just 1/16" shy of the Boone & Crocket Record Book, and this sow began charging at me from 45 yards. She dropped less than 10 feet from me. I had managed to slip a bullet through her eye socket and into her brain. I later recovered 7 bullets under her skin on her rump, and I had hit her in the head with EVERY shot!
I went back to the .41 Mag. and have never experienced anything but one-shot kills, and almost all have been instant.
As I said, I have no experience with this powder, but I'll give it a close look in my loading manuals.With handloading, newer powders like Hodgdon's Lil' Gun offer higher velocities while still working within safe pressure limits.
With all due respect, possums, skunks, bulls and even deer are a completely different sack of cats. They're all very thin-skinned critters. Boars and bears carry a gristle plate that is closely akin to wearing body armor under their hides.Like I said, the .357 wouldn't be my first choice, but if that's all I had, with the proper ammo, it can be made to work. I carried one on duty for many, many years and killed everything from opossums and skunks to dangerous bulls at the livestock auction.
I have carried a .357 on duty, but I also supervised the transition of a rural Sheriff's Department in Kentucky from their wheel-guns to the semi-auto back in the late 1970s. I carried a 1911 in .45 ACP, cocked-n-locked. Most of the older guys back then followed my example. Most of the whippersnappers who were more my contemporaries at the time went with the hi-capacity 9mm pistols. And after a couple of years, half of those guys migrated to the 1911 as well. Just to finish this digression, I got to pay a visit to my old department a few years ago and wanted to break into tears to learn the old-timers were gone, and my former contemporaries and all the newcomers were all packing tupperware sissy pistols in either 9mm or the (neither fish-nor-fowl) .40 S&W. (I'm sorry, but I just don't care for that cartridge.)
In addition, I will admit that I often carry a 9mm sissy pistol: the Hi-Power, but only because it's lighter and easier to conceal than my full-size 1911. And my Hi-Power shoots 1-inch groups at 25 yards, so the accuracy makes up for the 9mm Europellet.
You are absolutely correct on this point! Which is why I do feel comfortable with my 9mm sissy pistol!Bullet placement with any gun, as usual, is always key.
Them's my two cents' worth. Thanks for the reply, Bob.
Allen
I have no experience with HandGun-hunting, much less 'bear'... but...for bear.
If a bear is at a sorta-safe distance... 40yds and more...
then I'd need a rifle to be effective... (not even sure if my .308 is enough)
and if the bear is closer, it is likely charging AT ME and I won't get
one of those Grizzly-Adams scenes with the bear up on hind legs
with its front-paws waving so I get some chest/belly shots...
All I have is about 4-seconds to shoot at a mouth, head and paws
coming directly at me at 20+ mph... not much chance of getting a
good shot at that!! I shake too much.
Also, I've heard that when you're out in the wild where bears may be
a problem, you're supposed to have some of those "sleigh bells" and
if you see bear-signs... clip the bells on your jacket and the bear will
hear you and move on out of the area...
How do you know if there are bears nearby??
--- when you find bear-dung with bells in it...
excuse my diversion, hope everyone had a safe/happy Holiday weekend.
I spent mine with an out-of-season-Cold!! but it's rainy here and our
summer seems to be over.
Depends on what kind of bear though. Grizzly and brown just about demand a .44 Magnum minimum with heavy 300gr soft point or cast loads. A .454 or larger would be good advice.
Black bear are a different story however. I wouldn't consider a .357 too undergunned if utilizing 180gr bullets, cast or jacketed. It's a good penetrating load when pushed fast. I see my 10mm Witness with heavy bullets as being more than adequate: 200gr bullet at 1200fps with 15 on reserve. Mike McNett of Doublt Tap ammo has taken several black bear with said load.
Use what you have, but go bigger when given the option. Your life depends on it.
Black bear are a different story however. I wouldn't consider a .357 too undergunned if utilizing 180gr bullets, cast or jacketed. It's a good penetrating load when pushed fast. I see my 10mm Witness with heavy bullets as being more than adequate: 200gr bullet at 1200fps with 15 on reserve. Mike McNett of Doublt Tap ammo has taken several black bear with said load.
Use what you have, but go bigger when given the option. Your life depends on it.
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bearandoldman
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allendavis
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Bear and Old Man wrote:
Amen and Amen!
I know you live in Mich., but not where. If you know a man named Mark Farner, pat him on the back real hard from me. You guys must be blood brothers. And I'm one of Farner's biggest fans as a libertarian -- and a musician. Farner owns a farm just outside Flint (close to Schwartz Creek) and another one up on the north shore of the LP). I know you probably have no idea who I'm talking about.
[Uh, you're a black guy from Chicago, right? Do you know a guy named Tyrone from the southside? I guess you guys all know each other.]
Hey, just taking a stab here! I made friends with Ted Nugent just this way!
Allen
Use what you have, but go bigger when given the option. Your life depends on it.
BIGGER is always BETTER
Amen and Amen!
I know you live in Mich., but not where. If you know a man named Mark Farner, pat him on the back real hard from me. You guys must be blood brothers. And I'm one of Farner's biggest fans as a libertarian -- and a musician. Farner owns a farm just outside Flint (close to Schwartz Creek) and another one up on the north shore of the LP). I know you probably have no idea who I'm talking about.
[Uh, you're a black guy from Chicago, right? Do you know a guy named Tyrone from the southside? I guess you guys all know each other.]
Hey, just taking a stab here! I made friends with Ted Nugent just this way!
Allen
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bearandoldman
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- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:30 am
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Saginaw, about 30 miles north of Flintallendavis wrote:Bear and Old Man wrote:
Use what you have, but go bigger when given the option. Your life depends on it.
BIGGER is always BETTER
Amen and Amen!
I know you live in Mich., but not where. If you know a man named Mark Farner, pat him on the back real hard from me. You guys must be blood brothers. And I'm one of Farner's biggest fans as a libertarian -- and a musician. Farner owns a farm just outside Flint (close to Schwartz Creek) and another one up on the north shore of the LP). I know you probably have no idea who I'm talking about.
[Uh, you're a black guy from Chicago, right? Do you know a guy named Tyrone from the southside? I guess you guys all know each other.]
Hey, just taking a stab here! I made friends with Ted Nugent just this way!
Allen
You have great day and shoot straight and may the Good Lord smile on you.
Al,
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that bigger is better as well. I just said that the .357 can and will work if need be.
Mainly I do a lot of work with cast bullets. I haven't used a jacketed pistol bullet for hunting in the past 10 or 15 years. I swage my own jacketed bullets and still use some factory stuff, but for the most part, I cast them.
The two schools of thought in ballisitics are the "light & fast", and "slow & heavy". Both have their "pro's & con's". Light & fast will naturally get you there faster, with flatter trajectory, and usually more explosive expansion. Within closer ranges, those type of loads can, and usually do produce energies that are "at, or above" the energies of the lower heavier loads. But, based on their lighter bullet weight to gain those speeds, their penetration qualities are quite poor as the bullets usually come apart long before they reach anything vital on tough targets.
Going with a heavier harder bullet, or one of a thicker jacket design, which, naturally by it's weight constraints, limit the velocity of the load to a lesser extent, will still create more momentum than the previous example.
The reason you gave for using the .45 on duty was one example of this, somewhat.
The standard .357, 158 gr. load at 1250fps generates approx. 550ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. The .45 ACP, 230 gr standard load, at 850-900fps, produces a little over 400fpe.
The .45ACP, even at it's lower velocity, has bullet weight, and bullet diameter on it's side, so it's energy is mainly distributed on impact, and visually, gives the appearance of being more powerful than the .357, even though as I indicated, it isn't.
The 41 Magnum you mentioned, using either the 170, 210, or 220 gr bullets, at velocities from 1400 to 1200fps for those weights, will generate energies from 700fpe, to approx. 800.
Although the .357 has lesser energy than the .41 Mag, using the proper jacketed bullet, and with the smaller diameter it has, will penetrate far more than you think.
As soon as a bullet starts to expand, it transmits it's energy expotentially, and velocity drops accordingly.
It's the old rule of thought that if you had the same energy at the end of your finger that you do with a closed fist, which would penetrate more if you struck someone with each, the wider flatter fist, or your finger ?
"If energies were equal", and both bullets were of the same construction (same weight, jacket thickness etc.....just a diameter difference) the smaller diameter bullet would pass deeper into the target. The wider diameter bullet will transmit more of it's energy on impact.
The .41 Mag gains it's edge on "mainly" two areas, bullet diameter, and bullet weight. Velocities (if you compare light to heavy bullet weights in both calibers) are pretty close, so speed isn't all that different.
I hunt with .44 Mags in revolvers, and several single shot & bolt handguns in rifle calibers, but with all the deer I've had to kill over the past years from car/deer accidents, and seeing what it can do, I wouldn't have a problem using it.
With bear, and knowing ahead of time, I'd probably go with something heavier. But if the .357 was all I had, I'd just carry ammo that would do the trick. Federal is even producing and selling their "Hardcast" line for magnum handguns. Just a hardcast factory load that would work perfect for such ventures.
Oh yeah, I don't know about a bull being "thin skinned". Comparably, you've gotta go a lot longer way to hit vitals, and killing one that's mad is even worse.
Al......a cop & a musician ? Guess what Al....we've got more in common than you think.....
Ever heard of the band "Anthrax" ? Joey Belladonna....the lead singer.........."taught him everything he knows".......hahahaha...no not really......we've been best friend's and bandmates since 1975 when we first met. Played together up until 1979-80 when I moved and got married. I still talk to him every other month or so. We exchange sound tracks and both work on projects. I provide guitar tracks to him for certain songs etc. He keeps prodding me to come to his place (studio) lay down some tracks and jam like we used to.
Getting old though....................can't miss my naps.
Take care,
Bob
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that bigger is better as well. I just said that the .357 can and will work if need be.
Mainly I do a lot of work with cast bullets. I haven't used a jacketed pistol bullet for hunting in the past 10 or 15 years. I swage my own jacketed bullets and still use some factory stuff, but for the most part, I cast them.
The two schools of thought in ballisitics are the "light & fast", and "slow & heavy". Both have their "pro's & con's". Light & fast will naturally get you there faster, with flatter trajectory, and usually more explosive expansion. Within closer ranges, those type of loads can, and usually do produce energies that are "at, or above" the energies of the lower heavier loads. But, based on their lighter bullet weight to gain those speeds, their penetration qualities are quite poor as the bullets usually come apart long before they reach anything vital on tough targets.
Going with a heavier harder bullet, or one of a thicker jacket design, which, naturally by it's weight constraints, limit the velocity of the load to a lesser extent, will still create more momentum than the previous example.
The reason you gave for using the .45 on duty was one example of this, somewhat.
The standard .357, 158 gr. load at 1250fps generates approx. 550ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. The .45 ACP, 230 gr standard load, at 850-900fps, produces a little over 400fpe.
The .45ACP, even at it's lower velocity, has bullet weight, and bullet diameter on it's side, so it's energy is mainly distributed on impact, and visually, gives the appearance of being more powerful than the .357, even though as I indicated, it isn't.
The 41 Magnum you mentioned, using either the 170, 210, or 220 gr bullets, at velocities from 1400 to 1200fps for those weights, will generate energies from 700fpe, to approx. 800.
Although the .357 has lesser energy than the .41 Mag, using the proper jacketed bullet, and with the smaller diameter it has, will penetrate far more than you think.
As soon as a bullet starts to expand, it transmits it's energy expotentially, and velocity drops accordingly.
It's the old rule of thought that if you had the same energy at the end of your finger that you do with a closed fist, which would penetrate more if you struck someone with each, the wider flatter fist, or your finger ?
"If energies were equal", and both bullets were of the same construction (same weight, jacket thickness etc.....just a diameter difference) the smaller diameter bullet would pass deeper into the target. The wider diameter bullet will transmit more of it's energy on impact.
The .41 Mag gains it's edge on "mainly" two areas, bullet diameter, and bullet weight. Velocities (if you compare light to heavy bullet weights in both calibers) are pretty close, so speed isn't all that different.
I hunt with .44 Mags in revolvers, and several single shot & bolt handguns in rifle calibers, but with all the deer I've had to kill over the past years from car/deer accidents, and seeing what it can do, I wouldn't have a problem using it.
With bear, and knowing ahead of time, I'd probably go with something heavier. But if the .357 was all I had, I'd just carry ammo that would do the trick. Federal is even producing and selling their "Hardcast" line for magnum handguns. Just a hardcast factory load that would work perfect for such ventures.
Oh yeah, I don't know about a bull being "thin skinned". Comparably, you've gotta go a lot longer way to hit vitals, and killing one that's mad is even worse.
Al......a cop & a musician ? Guess what Al....we've got more in common than you think.....
Ever heard of the band "Anthrax" ? Joey Belladonna....the lead singer.........."taught him everything he knows".......hahahaha...no not really......we've been best friend's and bandmates since 1975 when we first met. Played together up until 1979-80 when I moved and got married. I still talk to him every other month or so. We exchange sound tracks and both work on projects. I provide guitar tracks to him for certain songs etc. He keeps prodding me to come to his place (studio) lay down some tracks and jam like we used to.
Getting old though....................can't miss my naps.
Take care,
Bob
Do illiterate people get the full effect of alphabet soup ?
Allen, what department did you work with in KY? I'm here in the South, just off Interstate 75.
Bob, the sectional density of the 10mm's 200gr bullet is .179 (equal to 160gr .357"). It's known to be a great penetrator, even in hollowpoints. The XTP is usually seen to penetrate about 19" with expansion. Taking this into account, the 180gr .357" bullet has a .202 sectional density at similar velocities. I guarantee you it will out penetrate the 10mm load.
Sectional density and velocity are always good indicators of penetration.
Bob, the sectional density of the 10mm's 200gr bullet is .179 (equal to 160gr .357"). It's known to be a great penetrator, even in hollowpoints. The XTP is usually seen to penetrate about 19" with expansion. Taking this into account, the 180gr .357" bullet has a .202 sectional density at similar velocities. I guarantee you it will out penetrate the 10mm load.
Sectional density and velocity are always good indicators of penetration.