1911 Thumbsafety removal?

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greener

1911 Thumbsafety removal?

Post by greener » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:52 pm

The old 1911 I bought a while back http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/vie ... php?t=3954 slide wanted to stick or be very hard to open when empty. I decided to strip it and look at the parts. I can't get the thumbsafety to rotate out. (Hammer back, grip safety down, main spring removed). Any ideas before I start whaling on it with a pin punch?

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blue68f100
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Post by blue68f100 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:48 pm

Do you already have the slide off? I assume yes.

When you removed the main spring housing you probably got the disconnector out of position. This causes a JAM.

Here is a guide that should help you. It covers what you did. I always remove the TS before the main spring so I don't have to worry about it jamming.

http://www.m1911.org/full_striping.htm
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
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greener

Post by greener » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:39 pm

Like the link I removed the mainspring. It's jammed and I haven't figured out how to unjam it.

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Post by blue68f100 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:20 pm

It's the disconnector that jams things up. May be shake up side down. Try to work the sear spring back in place to push the disconnector up. Then use the main spring just start to hold it. Then try to get the TS out.

A friend of mine did the same thing. I was able to shake and bank till I got it in the right place. Stay after it.
David

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greener

Post by greener » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:02 pm

Got tired of shaking it and resorted to brute force: pin punch and ball peen hammer. Pretty gummed up. I have replacement sear and disconnector.

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Post by Bullseye » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:02 am

When this happens I usually reinstall the leaf spring and partially install the mainspring housing (just slide it up the frame far enough to hold the leaf spring in place) and that usually applies pressure to the disconnector and sear to move them back into place. Once that is complete and the safety still doesn't come out, I tap on the side of the frame with a mallet while holding the frame upside down, and then wiggle the thumb safety back and forth while retracting it.

I know this is all after the fact info but perhaps it may come in handy at a later date.

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greener

Post by greener » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:27 am

Is it possible that the thumb safety wasn't properly fitted? It is a new looking part in an old gun. Is the assumption that it is properly fitted because it is in there and working necessarily valid?

I tried putting the sear spring back in and holding it in place with the mainspring housing. I also tried using a pick to move the disconnector around. I had the thing upside down a few times. Probably none of this much better than random walk attempts.

The disconnector in the pistol looked pretty beaten up and the sear looked as though someone had done some stoning. The edge looked square but the metal behind it was cut at an angle. I replaced both with one I had from the two old pistols I bought a couple years ago.

I loosened the barrel link fit. It was tight when perpendicular to the barrel. I thought I had done that before but maybe not enough. That may have been the cause of the really hard slide opening effort.

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Post by blue68f100 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:46 am

Proper fitting of the TS requires the sear block to fit so the sear will not move any if the trigger is pulled. Install the TS with out the grip safety and you can see the parts interact. I also use a marker on the TS ledge to make sure I have a slight rub and even contact. My gun has a very narrow window for the TS to come out. I normally push on the pin and rotate till it finds the window.

Sorry to hear you drove it out messing up the parts. It takes a little time and luck to get the sear spring back in the right spot since your working blind. But you learned a good lesson on why it's better to remove the TS before the main spring housing. I have done it the way you did but I used a velcro strap to hold the GS down so it would not release.

Tight lockup is preferred up to a point. Some are overly tight and need not be. All that is needed for accuracy is consistent lockup with zero play. I know the LB a friend of mine has was WAY too tight. It took over 50# to break the slide back. And would only go into to full battery on a full release. Till it got dirty then the slide was not going all the way forward. Not sure it was getting barrel bind since it was so tight. He had it loosened up since he has a bad shoulder and could not operate it. Changing the slide lock can impact this too since they come in different sizes.

Barrel link function is only to pull the barrel down to unlock. So the length should not change. The lower barrel feet should ride on the slide lock pin, not the link. If riding the link it will eventually fail. Normally there only 0.001" to 0.003" interface being pin and feet on a good fit. The barrel feet will eventually wear a flat on the pin, perfectly normal. This is the last .1" - .2" of slide travel. This is where my 1911 that I build shows resistance. Production guns, with just drop in parts will/may not ride on the barrel feet at all.

Make sure you do all the safety checks before you fire it. The m1911.org site has a good guide for that.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

greener

Post by greener » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:44 pm

I'm not sure what I had with the disconnector. I've usually done the disassembly taking the mainspring housing out first, but I've done it both ways. The link suggests taking the mainspring out before removing the safety. This time the sear spring fell out and as you said, it is quite a challenge to get it back in place.

I'm not sure I damaged any parts driving the thumb safety out. It looked pretty beaten up but no where near the safety pin.

The barrel link pin, when it went perpendicular to the barrel, was almost wedged into the posts on the barrel. It didn't flop as I've seen in every other 1911. I thought I had sanded enough off the barrel posts before to prevent a tight wedge, I suppose I didn't. When I tried to take the slide completely out of battery, it was very hard to do with the hammer cocked or uncocked. My fiddling loosened it up some, but net enough. This time I fixed that.

The reassembled pistol seemed to work properly. At the range today, it cycled better than it did before. I shot about an 8"group (mostly high) with lead semiwad cutters and FMJ. With some keyholes. I put most of the rounds fired from another 1911 inside the black on a 50' slow fire target (all rounds were the lead semi-wadcutters.).

Looks like I'll have all kinds of fun after Christmas.

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Post by blue68f100 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:25 pm

The pin that holds the link into the barrel is normally press fit or pined so it does not come out. Not required but makes it easier to assemble when it stay together. But the link should float and not bind.

If that gun is that tight your groups should be very small :) :)

If it's as tight as you say check for barrel spring/bind with the bushing. This is checked with the slide off. Turn up side down and see if your barrel is a spring board, pushing down on the hood end. If you can you have some spring which needs to be address. Normally a couple of passes with 600 grit paper to the bushing is all it takes.

If you have a pin set you can determine how much the lower barrel feet are riding the pin. Maybe a number drill set shafts may get you close to the .200" spec. Use a maker to on the feet to check for even rub. Should contact even on both sides. Normally this area does not cause a hard to move slide though. That it usually the bushing to barrel locking up.

The LB my friend has before he had it loosen up took over 50# of force to move the slide. I could not believe it was that hard till I pushed it against the bathroom scales. NO reason for it to be that hard. It was so tight it was not going in to battery 100% of the time.

Now if the firing pin stop has a square or small radius it will make racking the slide harder as well as a strong main spring. The best way to tame recoil. I would not expect this from a WWII parts gun. Most of those where built loose so they were reliable when dirty. Rattle trap.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

greener

Post by greener » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:34 am

The barrel link pin in this one is loose enough to fall out. I have another barrel that the pin is almost that loose.

I'd bet the effort to move the slide fully out of battery was at least 50# when the slide was in-battery on an empty chamber. It seemed to be less loaded but was still hard. I think the primary cause was the barrel link binding between the posts on the barrel. When I loosened that fit and after replacing sear and disconnector, the force was normal.

Groups are terrible and it isn't all shooter, so I need to look at barrel fit???

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Post by blue68f100 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:49 am

If I recall those guns from that era was only fitted to operate with maybe a 8-10" group at 15 yrds best.

Looks like a good project gun.

I have a chart somewhere saying for every 0.001" slop in the slide/bushing/barrel fit will add 1" to the group, don't remember the distance.
David

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greener

Post by greener » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:56 am

I'm not sure what the accuracy specs were for service 1911's. Most that I fired probably did 4"-6" at 25 yards. The one assigned to me as a battalion S3 was very accurate and consistent. The one assigned to me as a battalion commander was so bad the first (and only) time I fired it I had two spotters helping me figure out where the rounds were going. The gun rattled like a Hi-Point. The S3 lost his pistol for a while that afternoon.

I'm not sure what accuracy specs were required. A high percentage of those assigned handguns had difficulty putting rounds on paper at 15 yards. As a commander I made my staff qualify with 230gr FMJ instead of No. 2 pencils. It was a sight to behold.

I figured it was a project gun when I got it.

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Post by bgreenea3 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:10 pm

Easy on the hi-Points.. everyont I've handled and shot, even though they have the ergonomics of a rough hewn 2x4 and heavy enough to use as a boat anchor, have been 100% reliable and accrate far above their price point.
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greener

Post by greener » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:29 am

But they do rattle

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