A Walk Down Memory Lane

charlesb · Post by **charlesb** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:08 pm

On a weird impulse, I bought a distressed S&W K-38 Target Masterpiece last week at a gun show.

One side of the 6" barrel is pitted and cold-blued. Apparently the gun sat in a wet holster, or something like that. It's hard to say, because rat urine will do the same thing to a gun in its box.

At any rate, it functions perfectly. I bought three boxes of Winchester HBWC loads so I could pretend it was back in the old days, when I used to shoot bulleseye.

It has been decades since I have plunked wadcutters out of a revolver. - In my heyday, I used a 6" S&W model 24 ( 44 Spl ) with target sights to terrorize the Govt model owners at the local bullseye matches.

It really used to hare-lip some of those guys when I would clean their clocks with that clunky old revolver. The automatics are supposed to be better - and often are.

I never did learn to shoot timed fire or slow fire... I just always fired at rapid fire rate, on the theory that consistency would win out in the end.

In the end, it did not win out but I had a lot of fun with it any-who. The guys used to yank my chain and call me "Salvo" because any time I picked up the gun, a few seconds later it was empty.

After taking the old K-38 out shooting a few times, I bowed to the inevitable and ordered a deluxe set of Lee .38spl dies, a box of 500 Speer HBWC's, a can of "TiteGroup", and 500 Winchester small pistol primers. My first batch I loaded up with 2.8 grains of the Titegroup, and look forward to seeing how they will shoot.

Any words of loading wisdom for me, from folks more experienced with 38 special? - I decided to try Titegroup because it is new to me, and I know that a lot of the newer powders are phenomenal.

I would have looked for another model 24, but they are hard to find and expensive, if you find a good one.

My model 24 ended up being destroyed... I sold it to the deacon of the local church - and he sold it to someone else - and it showed up at a murder scene in Ft. Worth.

Guess I should have hung on to that one, it did a great job on paper.

With the barrel already boogered up on this K-38, I don't have to worry about holster wear, so now the K-38 accompanies me on my rounds around the farm in the mornings. I still carry my .17HMR rifle or my scoped MkIII sometimes - but the K-38 is always there in the holster, ready to cough up a slow moving piece of lead at something or another, if so required.

At the range, I noted that my groups were OK but it is obvious that with practice, they could be a lot better. - Hope so, anyway!

Every time I step up to fire that K-38 at the range though, it takes me on a walk down memory lane.

Money well spent!

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:25 pm

I'm not a fan of ultra fast burn powders. There only use is fat loads. One of the reason I don't like them is that you can double and triple charge and not know it by looking in the top of the brass. Also the error of deviation is great. With most scales only ±0.1gr you can have over a 10% swing and never know it.

I like 2400 for the 357mag, works well with the 38spl too. Just stay in the mid range and it's burns clean.

charlesb · Post by **charlesb** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:30 pm

To be honest, I am more of a rifle shooter these days, and have been for quite a while.

In my rifle loads, I like a high loading density, where there's just enough space left for the bullet to be seated, without crunching the powder.

My theory on the fast burning powders being so popular for target pistol shooting is that serious target shooters do an awful lot of shooting, and the fast burning powders significantly cut down on the expense involved - so you can do more shooting.

If not that, it's hard to imagine why they would want a low loading density.

I do know however, that almost all bullseye loads are low loading density loads. - for whatever reason.

Maybe it has something to do with the pure lead bullet with lots of surface area exposed to the combustion flame, ( hollow base ) so they want to keep the combustion time down to reduce leading, following from vaporization of the lead.

One thing I thought about was Trail Boss, but they didn't have any at the hardware store, and TiteGroup was next on the list. - I was wanting to try something new.

I won't be able to test the .38 Special loads for accuracy until I get some shells loaded for a few other firearms. - The club is 25 miles away, so I prefer to show up there early on a weekday, with several weapons to test or enjoy.

I still have plenty of the Winchester HBWC factory loads, so I'll be able to do a side-by-side comparison, to see how the handloads work out.

I've looked, but can't find any loads for the HBWC bullets, utilizing 2400. Is there a place online where I can take a look? I'll be needing 750, maybe 800 fps from my 6" barrel for the pure lead, 148 grn hollow-based wadcutters.

Side Note:

I was showing my son the big box of Speer HBWC's, and his comment was, "They look like 358 caliber air rifle pellets!"

It was a beard-stroking, eyebrow-arching moment for me.

"Yes, they certainly do!"

greener · Post by **greener** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:43 am

Since looks don't shoot, sounds like you got a good deal. I've been using 4.5gr of Universal w/158g LSWC's. Seems to be a pretty consistent round and load.

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:28 am

The powder is the cheapest part of the components when it comes to reloading. The savings is <$0.005/round which can add up if your shooting 1000's/month. TG is probably the leading powder when it comes to KB's the reason I informed you. Most comp shooters shoot a heavy bullet slow with Bullseye shooters to meet min. This gives a softer recoil and makes the second shot faster. The HB allows you to shoot a lighter bullet slower and reduce the recoil for those sensitive to recoil.

The HB works really good on stabilizing/spinning the bullet on short barrel guns and mouse fart loads. I use a 185HBRN in 45acp, 3" barrel. The length is the same as 230 gr though without all the lead filling it up.

I will see what I can find for you on the 2400 and 38 spl. The computer I'm on right now does not have all of my bookmarks to get to mfg sites. You can normally use the same WC data but will need to start low (back off .1gr over std) and work up the load. The HB reduces the case volume in some, increasing the pressure. I say some mainly because the mold is normally the heavier bullet profile and length. If not it lower the pressure due to more volume.

Is the bullet profile a true WC or SWC?

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:15 pm

My .38 target loads are 3.6 grains of Titegroup with 158 gr LSWC. I use a Dillon 550, and recently chronographed some rounds. They were all between 637 (only 1) and 650. Most were 645 to 650 fps. They are soft shooting and more accurate than I am. For what it's worth, my .357 target loads are 4.0 Titegroup (same bullet) and chrono at about 840. Both guns (a Model 67 and a 686 SSR) are 4" barrels. It surprised me that a 10% increase in powder gave almost a 30% increase in velocity. I've tried 3.2 of Titegroup and thought they were a tad on the weak side. The 3.6 loads are more accurate in my experience, but your mileage may vary.

Same load with a copper plated bullet is 585 for the .38 and 725 for the .357. I'm currently playing with seating depth as the plated bullets are shorter (difference in length below the cannelure) so my thinking is thye may be a little low on pressure. I loaded up a few more seating the bullet a little deeper to see if that makes any difference.

Coach1 · Post by **Coach1** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:42 pm

Charles,
I am not a reloader myself. So I have no advice regarding that aspect of this thread. But I do have 2 comments;
1. I enjoyed your story. Thanks for sharing.
2. And I am surprised no one else here has commented about...
"... because rat urine will do the same to a gun in its box"

Now THAT is a statement I have never read before - anywhere! And I bet there is a story behind it, too.

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:13 pm

My new Lyman 49 edition does not list anything, and my neighbor has my older version.

A lot of times you can contact the mfg of the bullet and they have the data you need. I've done this several times.

Found some data on Stevespages.com http://www.stevespages.com/357p_7_146.html very top line. Does not give you velocity data for the load. The notes I have found from some I loaded a couple of years back was for a lighter bullet 137gr. 8.0-12.0 gr of 2400. The range they give for the heavier bullet is in line with what I recall.

But with any new load it's always best to start low and workup the load for your gun.

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 pm

I believe 2400 is best for heavy for caliber bullets at magnum velocities..... not so much for light target loads. I think it needs the pressure of the heavy bullet to cumbust properly.

from hodgdon
148 GR. HDY LHBWC IMR SR 4756 .358" 1.160" 3.5 732 4.0 854
148 GR. HDY LHBWC HS-6 .358" 1.160" 4.5 816 5.2 943
148 GR. HDY LHBWC AutoComp .358" 1.160" 3.7 820 4.1 881
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Universal .358" 1.160" 2.9 709 3.8 940
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Win 231 .358" 1.160" 3.5 869 4.0 956
148 GR. HDY LHBWC HP-38 .358" 1.160" 3.5 869 4.0 956
148 GR. HDY LHBWC IMR SR 7625 .358" 1.160" 2.5 650 3.0 767
148 GR. HDY LHBWC IMR PB .358" 1.160" 2.6 745 3.0 840
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Win WST .358" 1.160" 2.5 680 2.8 735
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Trail Boss .358" 1.160" 2.0 625 2.3 675
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Titegroup .358" 1.160" 2.7 771 3.3 908
148 GR. HDY LHBWC IMR 700-X .358" 1.160" 2.0 686 2.5 804
148 GR. HDY LHBWC Clays .358" 1.160" 2.3 784 2.5 836
alliant shows 3.1g bullseye for 799fps (max load)
or 3.0 gr of red dot for 806fps

charlesb · Post by **charlesb** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:45 pm

Coach1 wrote:Charles,
I am not a reloader myself. So I have no advice regarding that aspect of this thread. But I do have 2 comments;
1. I enjoyed your story. Thanks for sharing.
2. And I am surprised no one else here has commented about...
"... because rat urine will do the same to a gun in its box"

Now THAT is a statement I have never read before - anywhere! And I bet there is a story behind it, too.

It happened to a friend who was away for two weeks one summer, snorkeling and fooling around in the Bahamas... He came back to discover that rats had gotten into his closet, and peed on a box there that contained his pistol.

I looked at it, but I don't know much about refinishing guns... The best I could do was to suggest that he talk to somebody who did that kind of thing for a living.

greener · Post by **greener** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:03 pm

Smith's reloading pages http://www.reloadammo.com/38loads.htm have some 2400 loads, but only for higher bullet weights. Some are +P loads.

I've found Smith's data to be fairly good.

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:08 am

from alliant powder on 2400

Smokeless magnum handgun powder

Legendary for its performance in .44 magnum and other magnum pistol loads. Originally developed for the .22 Hornet, it's also the shooter's choice for .410 bore.
•High velocity
•Magnum handgun loads
•Shooter's choice for 410
Principal Purpose: Magnum handgun loads
Secondary Uses: .22 Hornet and 218 Bee

they don't reccomend it for light loads, i think because the burn rate is too slow the faster powders are better for lighter bullets....

charlesb · Post by **charlesb** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:59 am

greener wrote:Smith's reloading pages http://www.reloadammo.com/38loads.htm have some 2400 loads, but only for higher bullet weights. Some are +P loads.

I've found Smith's data to be fairly good.

I had a lot of fun reading the articles there. Thanks for the link!

charlesb · Post by **charlesb** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:23 am

blue68f100 wrote: Is the bullet profile a true WC or SWC?

It's a traditional wadcutter bullet, that does not project beyond the case mouth.

- Good for a S&W model 52 ".38 Master" automatic, for example... I foolishly passed up a chance to get one of those in flawless condition for 600 bills, a few weeks back. As you can imagine, I am still kicking myself over that - but not too hard as I would never put something like that in a holster and walk around the farm with it.

It would be so nice and so rare that I would hesitate to have any fun with it.

Hey, I noticed that we both shoot MkIII's with a 2x scope. I was shooting mine at clay pigeons set up on edge, leaning against a board at 100 yards, a while back with my son.

We were connecting more often than not, but sometimes the slugs would just punch on through the clay without shattering it, especially if we hit close to the center, in the flat area. Toward the end, we were holding a little high in hopes of hitting the edge of the clay, where the surface was angled. Those hits were a lot better about shattering the clays.

We tried going over to a low velocity, target round - and quit hitting the clays. The Winchester bulk pack HP's from Wal-Mart did the best job that morning.

Most times, I shoot my MkIII at 30 yards or less. - Usually at less than 30 feet as I most often encounter varmints early in the morning when stepping around the corner of a building, entering the barn, etc.. We were amazed at how well it did at 100 yards, but conditions were close to ideal; Mid-morning with a light breeze at our backs.

The 2x scope seems perfect for that gun and cartridge, at all reasonable ranges. It wasn't bad at unreasonable ranges either, if you are shooting from the bench.

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:07 pm

Charlesb, I have moved to the Mueller QuickShot on my MKIII. I still have the scope and use it some but I find the dot quicker to get on target. When I'm at my dad's place I set targets that are 25 yds & 63 yrds off. Some time I hang cans at 63yrds, which I can hit most of the time if I set down so I can stabilized my movement. This year I got one of the 5" polymer ball and hung it off a stand so it would swing. This turned out being lot of fun, shooting at moving targets.

With the drought running 2 years now water is at a premium. Deer, coons, possums, coyotes, squirrels and now hogs have started coming in, and probably others. So next year I'm planning on hunting the wild hogs. Other neighbors have setup traps so they do not have to be out all the time. I tried to get my dad to do that but he was not interested. I may build one next summer anyway. I would love to have night scope on my dad's Win Mod 100 in 308 but their out of my budget, and my dad can not see through a scope, the reason I'm installing a green laser. I have a habit of caring my 45 or BHP 9mm when I'm there. But in the evening I take out the 22 and 308 when I watch the sun set and pond. At the end I would go out with a 100 lumins flashlight, go down to the road so I would be closer. Turn it on and see how many eye balls would show up. Normally I would see deer, but the last couple of days I saw a coon and rabbit on the side grassing. Buck have been coming in to the pond daily.

The local ranchers/farmers have started a full out war against the hogs as they should, they are already out of control.