Is .22 a new trend?

Discuss .22 pistols.

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ruger22
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Is .22 a new trend?

Post by ruger22 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:52 pm

It seems that with centerfire availability down and prices up, people are "rediscovering" .22 to save money, and finding it has other positives. People are buying more .22s, and conversion kits for autos are moving faster.

Maybe this will prompt the ammo companies to develop new .22 rounds? Especially in the self-defense market. The centerfires have seen a lot of new developments of late, with rimfires neglected too long.
* 2 Ruger Bearcat stainless, w/ EWK ejector housings & Wolff springs
* Ruger SP-101 .22LR, w/ Wolff springs
* 2 NAA Guardian .32ACP
* 3 Zastava M70 .32ACP
* S&W 15-22 Sport (.22LR AR)
* 2 Ruger SR22 .22LR pistols

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Post by keithj » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:23 am

.22 for defense ? not that a .22 isnt capable of killing but Im not trusting my life to one .........a defensive cartridge needs to stop the threat quickly 1 or 2 rds ............... .45, 10mm , .357 , .40......12 gauge.......

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Post by bearandoldman » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:32 am

keithj wrote:.22 for defense ? not that a .22 isnt capable of killing but Im not trusting my life to one .........a defensive cartridge needs to stop the threat quickly 1 or 2 rds ............... .45, 10mm , .357 , .40......12 gauge.......
Definitely, I carry a .380 but that is the smallest I will go and that is my backup, primary is a Micro 1911 in .45ACP. A .22LR would require very accurate shot placement and doing that under stress would be extremely difficult.
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Post by keithj » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:17 am

.380 I dont believe Ive had any expereince with that cartridge . I may have shot one a time or two but thats it . Ive herd that they have a reputation for feeding troubles ,but like I said Ive no personal expereince with them . My main carry is a S-W model 65 3 inch in .357 and I also carry a springfield armory 1911 in .45 of course . and should the bad guy invade my humble abode well the 12 gauge with a slug barrel and #4 buck should be more than enuff to change his mind ...........As far as the .22 seeing any great improvements , I dont see it . We already have ammo thats capable of great accuracy , and ammo thats great for hunting and varmints and right down to just going out and burning up 500 rds shooting cans so I dont see the manufactors spending money on R&D to develop a new and improved .22 rimfire when the .22 has its place well defined and filled just as it is ................................................Keith

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Post by Curmudgeon » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:20 am

It has been said the best camera to use is the one you have with you when an extreme situations arises.

I would think the same applies to a handgun carry. I really like the Kimber Custom ii for carrying, so it will be the best choice if I have to defend my life or my unarmed family.

This country is becoming a dangerous but very politically correct nation of fools.
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Post by ruger22 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:55 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:This country is becoming a dangerous but very politically correct nation of fools.
I can certainly agree with that.

Twenty-two is my caliber of choice as I cannot justify the cost of most quality centerfire handguns, with the cost of sufficient practice, into my budget. I would feel safer if more effective .22 rounds were available, but either way, I will carry .22 caliber.

There have been many improvements in centerfire ammo (Hornady Critical Defense, etc.) that could be transferred to rimfire, if the ammo makers would do so. The smaller rounds are the ones that need improved effectiveness!

Reliable ignition would be a start. So far as anyone knows, have rimfire primer compounds or their placement in the cartridge changed the least in fifty years?
* 2 Ruger Bearcat stainless, w/ EWK ejector housings & Wolff springs
* Ruger SP-101 .22LR, w/ Wolff springs
* 2 NAA Guardian .32ACP
* 3 Zastava M70 .32ACP
* S&W 15-22 Sport (.22LR AR)
* 2 Ruger SR22 .22LR pistols

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Post by blue68f100 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:15 pm

I'm like the others, I do not see the 22 being a defensive round. I believe the 380 is the smallest cal to carry that has sufficent stopping power. And I think this became more relevent when Hornady came out with the Critical Defense ammo. I use these CD in my 380 and 9mm. I have shot a few to confirm I had no feeding issues. I'm planing to shoot one (9mm) into some water jugs to check penetration and expansion. I know these failed the FBI test, only 10.5" in the ballestic gel. But as an up close and personal I believe these are fine. Since were responsiable for everything our bullet hits a little lower power is ok since it will be up close <3 yrds. But I will continue shooting till the threat has been nutrallized, whether it's 1 or 15+15.

I think most started shooting the 22 to save on ammo cost. But I have found that it does not address the DA, 1st shot.
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Post by ruger22 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:01 pm

I see that SBR has tracer rounds in .22LR. Pretty pricey, but interesting. I suppose a Bad Guy will be wearing clothes, so if you can't make a big hole, you could set him afire? :roll:

http://www.sbrammunition.com/22_tracer.html
* 2 Ruger Bearcat stainless, w/ EWK ejector housings & Wolff springs
* Ruger SP-101 .22LR, w/ Wolff springs
* 2 NAA Guardian .32ACP
* 3 Zastava M70 .32ACP
* S&W 15-22 Sport (.22LR AR)
* 2 Ruger SR22 .22LR pistols

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Post by bearandoldman » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:28 pm

The ideal defensive .22LR round would be one that leaves the muzzle and before traveling 12 inches expands to a .45 cal 230 grain JHP moving at 800fps, now that would be a real improvement.
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Post by bigfatdave » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:18 pm

ruger22, the .22LR cartridge just doesn't have the physics behind it to be as effective as most centerfire. There is only so much kinetic energy to bring to the party in such a small package. Remember that there is an upper limit on the pressure a rimfire's case or chamber can take, and that your projectile has to be of an exact diameter and in a narrow range of lengths, so loading up a volume so small with specialized projectiles just isn't cost-effective, if even possible.
Add in the reduced reliability of rimfire, and you just don't have a good choice for defense, particularly when you compare to 9mm (the cheapest centerfire cartridge on the market) ammunition and handguns.

Of course, all handguns are lousy for "stopping power" compared to just about any rifle or shotgun, but that isn't a reason to limit our SD choices even more drastically.

blue68f100 and bearandoldman, what, .32acp doesn't cut it for you? More capacity, similar muzzle energy, better penetration, actual ammunition available ... all good arguments for .32, while .380 will always be 9mm's slow/special cousin.
I really don't have the heart to troll us into a real caliber war, heck, I pack a 9mm for SD (generally with +p ammo), and am contemplating a KelTec P32 as BUG/range toy.

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Post by bearandoldman » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:36 pm

BFD, I carry a KelTec P3AT as a backup to my SA Micro, cheap gun that had some original feed problems that I solved. It goes bang every time e pull the trigger and is a lot better than a sharp stick and has a much better range. My mentor at least the last time I saw him carried a Glock of come kind in .40, a J frame Smith and some kind of a small auto chambered for that .32 round loaded in a necked down .380 case. As far as the P3AT, the price was right and the gun was small enough for a weak side pocket gun, although a hand full to shoot.
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Post by bigfatdave » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:44 pm

bear (or oldman), that would be .32NAA, so probably a North American Arms Guardian (link below), which is an interesting little caliber, sort of a miniature .357SIG. My understanding of it is that it offers the good feeding of a bottle-necked cartridge, with extra velocity compared to a .380 or .32, plus the advantage of the manufacturer not worrying about making old guns explode (the biggest advantage of a wholly new caliber).

I'm going into detail on the .32NAA because I think it actually has relevance to the OP's wish for a better .22 SD round. What would be required to actually juice up .22LR to reasonable SD energies would take a whole new design, something like the 5.7x28, or .17HM2 and .17HMR rounds - a complete re-imagining of the concept behind small-bore/high-speed pistols would be in order, because manufacturers just can't make a super-hot .22LR and sell it, some idiot would put it into his 50-year-old Ruger and have things get all explodey, or at least muck up the works of their pistol.
I don't know what it would take to get an effective rimfire SD round, but I know that it takes a .22mag from a long barrel to do the job with what's on the market.
Maybe a .44rimfire with modern materials and projectiles could do it in a "Simple blowback" design?

http://www.naaminis.com/32naa.html - NAA's site with basic stats on the Guardian.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page975.htm - ballistic testing of the .32NAA

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Post by bearandoldman » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:02 pm

BFD, that is the gun, NAA just did not come to my mind until you mentioned it. Never crossed my mind, but dyes is is a mini .357 Sig, local sheriff dept carries them as issue. Yes, I am oldman, Bear is the better looking furry member of the team. My mentor worked and retired as a homicide detective sergeant at a major city PD and has trained people at many government agencies also, he has carried the J frame and the NAA as backups for many years, the primary gun does vary at times depending where he is working. That 5.57x28 is an interesting cartridge also.
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Post by ruger22 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:28 pm

I still like to think in the literal thought of stopping power, not blow the BG into the next county power. What is going to stop the bad guy from hurting/robbing you? I want to just stop the guy, not kill the guy, if possible. But, the tracer rounds (six posts above) are still interesting.

Maybe I am naive, but I think 1-3 .22 rounds will make most BGs lose interest in finishing their evil deed. If a guy is so angry, or high, or juiced that he could ignore those, I doubt a larger caliber would make a real difference unless you have more time (equals distance) for the bigger holes to drop him cold.

It's so sad that this discussion is possible in a so-called 'civilized" society.
* 2 Ruger Bearcat stainless, w/ EWK ejector housings & Wolff springs
* Ruger SP-101 .22LR, w/ Wolff springs
* 2 NAA Guardian .32ACP
* 3 Zastava M70 .32ACP
* S&W 15-22 Sport (.22LR AR)
* 2 Ruger SR22 .22LR pistols

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Post by bearandoldman » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:09 pm

If you generally do carry a firearm, then you should carry the handgun of your choice as you are the one that must feel comfortable carrying it . As far as ammo cost per round, when there is a threat to myself or other innocents, the cost does not really mean much.I am an old man and I plan on getting a lot older yet. Save a buck and lose your life does not really pay off in the end, Just my opinion. others may and most likely will vary.
Last edited by bearandoldman on Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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