Opening Your Eyes - Use a Chronograph

allendavis · Post by **allendavis** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:47 pm

I recently was given a most generous and gracious present from a close friend: a chronograph. This is a device I'd been doing without for about 20 years.

The last chronograph I owned was an Oehler 33, and it was a pain-in-the-butt to deal with. No digital readouts, everything was on thermal paper, and even at that, you had to do a ton of math to interpret many of the numbers you got; you had to make sure that you wrote everything down on the spot, and even guard the print-outs from daylight or they'd fade from sight before your eyes (thermal printer paper again).

When I first bought this thing, you had to replace these little plastic/paper thingies that you had to shoot through. And they had to be replaced for EVERY SHOT.

I got an "upgrade" for this beast that used "skyscreens." Not really that big an improvement, in my opinion now, but back then, I thought I was in pig heaven.

Now I have a really modern chronograph that has to be the coolest toy I've been given since I was a 9-year old boy on Christmas day.

It does almost all my work for me.

Most importantly, it tells me what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong in my handloading.

In a 10-shot string, who wouldn't want to have an Extreme Spread (ES) of only 21.7 fps??? Or a Standard Deviation (SD) of only 6.63???

That's what I was getting with my "plinking" 9mm load with Win cases, WSP primers, 4.0 gr. of HP-38 and hard-cast 125 gr. LRN bullets. Oh, the velocity over 100 rounds averages out to 1,060 fps.

My recent experiments with gently hot-rodding the .45 Colt in a SAA clone have been less-than-satisfactory. I can't seem to land on anything that gives me any consistency whatsoever, and all I want is accuracy (above all) and a velocity level between 850-900 fps with either a 215 gr. LSWC or a 255 gr. LSWC. I've tried Accurate #2, #5 and #7 as well as Hodgdon HP-38.

I've been thinking of buying some of the "Dot" powders that used to be made by Hercules, but I don't want to use any of the data in my older manuals because I'm not certain that [Alliant or whoever the hell it is] followed the original "recipes" faithfully.

I've been handloading since I was about 13-14 years old, but will readilly admit that I'm now getting confused. ALL the manuals keep "downloading" everything in dosages with the powder. Is it for liability purposes or not? Are the powders being re-formulated, which results in the lighter charge weights??? I keep getting different answers from different (authoritative) sources.

Nevertheless, everyone who handloads should squeeze all the dimes and nickels they can and save up and buy a chronograph. One of these little machines will really tell you a lot about which loads you have are good and which aren't.

My pistol loads are great as they are. However, I've had to greatly alter all my .22-250 and .243 loads. They were accurate before, but now I'm getting much greater case life.

I can't say enough about getting a chronograph. Hell, you can get a great chronograph for just over $100 now, so why not???

I paid about $600 for the old Oehler that I had back in the 1970s, and by today's standards, it did suck eggs. But it made me a better handloader.

Just my two cents' worth.

Allen

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:52 am

Allen: it is always good to hear that a new "toy" is functioning well and you
are looking-forward to using up the battery with measurements.
With your recollections... you did not mention (or did I miss it?)
which brand/model Chronograph you got ?
Did you get a remote-read-out so that you can connect your laptop?
or better yet, route the output to a live-webpage and we can email you
with our suggestions for your next shot...

It's still TOO HOT for a Chrony around here, it'd MELT in the SunShine
and won't work in the shade...

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:11 pm

allen,

I don't own a chrongraph either - yet. However here is something you can try with your .45 Colt loads if you haven't already.

Use new brass, or no more than 2 times fired brass and recheck all your readings.
I have experianced variations in accuracy on my own loads, because as brass is fired and sized it work hardens. With straight walled cases this can cause variations in when the case releases the bullets.

On another forum, (I think it was on TRF) the loader stated he has done an exhaustive test and found that after each loading the velocitys become more and more eratic. After 4 loads they are so bad that he relegates his brass to the plinking ammo bucket.

Edited to add link and quote:
I found the thread I was commenting about.
http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/001936.html

Iowegan posted:
<snip> ......
In all loads, using different brands of brass, and different cartridges, I found brass life for my anal precision loads was 3 to 4 times fired. First off, there's no such thing as a perfect brass case. All have imperfections that affect accuracy and max velocity spreads. As the cases are fired and reloaded, thin areas get thinner and thick areas get thicker. By the time a case has been fired three or four times, the neck tension from case to case will not be uniform. This makes the bullet exit the case at different points in the pressure curve. The result is increasing max velocity spreads and a loss of precission accuracy.

Over the years, I have developed a "bench mark" load in each cartridge that I load. These loads will hold very tight max velocity spreads and are very accurate. When I did my WESHOOT2 thing (testing), I found the max velocity spreads went from under 25 fps in cases that had been loaded 3 times or less to 75 fps spread in cases loaded more than 4 times. After about 5 reloads, the max spread levels out to 75-100 fps.

So here's what I do. I mark my case bins with number of times fired. Any case fired more than 3 times goes in the "plinker" bin. If I want to load really precission stuff, I'll use the cases that have been fired less than 4 times. When precision accuracy is not a factor, I load the plinker cases and I use them until they split or won't hold a primer. Some of my plinker cases are almost as old as water. And yes, I do use Dillon carbide sizer dies.

Joe

allendavis · Post by **allendavis** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:59 pm

toyfj40 wrote:Allen: it is always good to hear that a new "toy" is functioning well and you
are looking-forward to using up the battery with measurements.
With your recollections... you did not mention (or did I miss it?)
which brand/model Chronograph you got ?

Sorry! My buddy bought me a Beta Model Chrony that I plan to upgrade soon with a memory upgrade.

Did you get a remote-read-out so that you can connect your laptop?
or better yet, route the output to a live-webpage and we can email you
with our suggestions for your next shot...

I didn't get the remote readout, and I find that I actually don't need one. I can read it just fine out to about 20 feet in front of the muzzle (I usually situate it 15-feet from the muzzle). I can connect it directly to my Mac if I'll get the cable with a USB on one end for the computer.

It's still TOO HOT for a Chrony around here, it'd MELT in the SunShine and won't work in the shade...

Au contraire, mon ami. My chrono actually works better in the shade or on a cloudy day. At least I don't have to mount the white plastic diffusion pieces at the top of the rods. Those are used on bright, cloudless days and are needed to provide sufficient contrast for the photo-optic sensors to better "read" the bullets as they pass over.

The "temperature operating range," according to Chrony's literature is 32-100 degrees Farenheit, but I talked to a guy from their New York office, and he said it would actually work pretty reliably down to under 20 degrees, but would't guarantee anything over 100°.

Allen

Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:08 pm

There is a picture of Toy's neighborhood in this thread - just to give you an idea what he's hinting at for hot.

http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186

I think he's concerned about a chronograph becoming a puddle out where he lives. Where is that again Toy? Hades, Texas?

R,
Bullseye

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:10 pm

Bullseye wrote:There is a picture of Toy's neighborhood in this thread - just to give you an idea what he's hinting at for hot.

http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186

I think he's concerned about a chronograph becoming a puddle out where he lives. Where is that again Toy? Hades, Texas?

R,
Bullseye

Hey it's notthat hot in Hell, had lunch there a few weeks ago, Hell, Michigan that is and no other state can make that statement.

allendavis · Post by **allendavis** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:22 pm

Joe wrote:

I don't own a chrongraph either - yet. However here is something you can try with your .45 Colt loads if you haven't already.

Use new brass, or no more than 2 times fired brass and recheck all your readings. I have experianced variations in accuracy on my own loads, because as brass is fired and sized it work hardens. With straight walled cases this can cause variations in when the case releases the bullets.

I've not been experiencing any accuracy problems with my own SAA clone, which I should have pointed out in my original message. My problem is with developing a load for the friend of mine who gave me the chronograph as a present. He wants to hunt deer with his revolver this fall. My gun has a 4-3/4" barrel and he has a 5-1/2", otherwise, they're nearly identical, both Italian-made (mine is an Armi San Marco, Jerry's is a Pietto, and both imported by EMF, so I know they're very good, high-quality guns).

I have several thousand pieces of Shooting Star brass, and only about 300-400 have been loaded 4 times or more, yet I see no degradation in accuracy in my gun whatsoever. The only disappointment I have with my load is that the velocity is so much slower than what my loading manuals all say it should be. I'm not even cracking 800 fps, and it was a shock to me when I chronographed this load a few weeks ago!

However, this load has killed two deer with one shot each without any hint of a problem. I neck-shot a nice 6-point buck a couple of years ago at just under 30 yards with this load, and it was dead before it hit the ground. And last year, I hit one right behind the left shoulder, punctured the heart and both lungs at almost exactly 55 yards (which was 5 yards farther than I intended to shoot, but I don't have a built-in range-finder in my skull). The bullet broke its right shoulder and stayed in the deer. This animal dropped like a rock, quivered a couple of times and wheezed strangely for about five seconds before it expired.

Jerry's ear is being bent by a mutual friend (who hasn't touched a loading press for almost 20 years, and has never loaded a single handgun round in his life) and insists that Jerry needs 900-950 fps minimum. This is bull, but I'm trying to be tactful, and haven't been getting through to him until this last weekend. (We did experience a single case mouth split with some of the warmer experimental ammo I loaded for Jerry with a once-fired case. A split case mouth doesn't necessarily disturb me, even with such a new case. A bright ring near the web or a spent primer falling out would scare the snot out of me!)

I can load very accurate, very, very consistent loads for his gun up to about 875-890 fps. Anything I load any hotter and the accuracy flies out the window, Extreme Spreads approach 100 fps, and the Standard Deviation hits numbers I'm too embarrassed to post on a forum.

If Jerry can't reliably hit the deer to begin with, what difference does it make if it is traveling at warp speed? And besides, even though I wasn't loading anything "maximum," it's still damned tough on the hardware to be shooting that kind of poison.

When Jerry was hitting bowling pins offhand at 70 yards (measured) 4/5 times (consistently), he decided he'd found his deer load. Incidentally, three of my then-virgin (BRAND NEW) bowling pins had 255 gr. Keith-style SWCs making "nipples" on them, so he knows that if he can puncture something that tough with a bullet that heavy, then he'll have to trouble puncturing a whitetail deer. It's obvious that Jerry is one damn-fine pistol shot, too. You should see him snap-shooting with a rifle. The man is like a machine.

On another forum, (I think it was on TRF) the loader stated he has done an exhaustive test and found that after each loading the velocitys become more and more eratic. After 4 loads they are so bad that he relegates his brass to the plinking ammo bucket.

Edited to add link and quote:
I found the thread I was commenting about.
http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/001936.html
Quote:
Iowegan posted:
<snip> ......
In all loads, using different brands of brass, and different cartridges, I found brass life for my anal precision loads was 3 to 4 times fired. First off, there's no such thing as a perfect brass case. All have imperfections that affect accuracy and max velocity spreads. As the cases are fired and reloaded, thin areas get thinner and thick areas get thicker. By the time a case has been fired three or four times, the neck tension from case to case will not be uniform. This makes the bullet exit the case at different points in the pressure curve. The result is increasing max velocity spreads and a loss of precission accuracy.

We must be twin brothers separated at birth. I thought I was the only one that ANAL about my handgun handloads!!!

However, I beg to differ on his basic premise. I have about 20,000 rounds of Winchester-branded (WIN) 9mm cases, and many of them have been loaded 20-30 times, and I've never worn a single one out; never had a split case mouth; never had a bright incipient separation ring; never had a loose primer pocket, etc. Never. Of course, I don't load those things very hot, either. And I'm loading these to 1050-1100 fps levels with lead bullets and fairly fast powders, mostly HP-38.

I can report similar experience with my .45 ACP loads. 225 gr. LRN bullets with HP-38 at about 850 fps. And same with .38 Spl. and .357 and .41 Mag. cartridges.

I will admit that the .45 Colt is the most finicky and difficult cartridge I've ever loaded for.

So here's what I do. I mark my case bins with number of times fired. Any case fired more than 3 times goes in the "plinker" bin. If I want to load really precission stuff, I'll use the cases that have been fired less than 4 times. When precision accuracy is not a factor, I load the plinker cases and I use them until they split or won't hold a primer. Some of my plinker cases are almost as old as water. And yes, I do use Dillon carbide sizer dies.

Jerry is supplying all of his own brass -- all Shooting Star-branded, and it's all either virgin, or once-fired. So that's not the problem. His gun is simply much more finicky than mine is. I have been tinkering around with the idea of loading up a relatively stiff load with a 225-gr. JHP to see how that would work, but jacketed bullets ain't nearly as cheap as my No. 2 alloy hard-cast lead bullets.

I appreciate the link, Joe, and will investigate this site. Sounds very interesting. And I'm always eager to learn something new!

Thanks for the input.

Allen

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:29 am

Bullseye wrote:Where is that again Toy? Hades, Texas?

This "diary" is not exactly right... some of the dates are WRONG !!

New Texan's Diary

May 30th:
Just moved to Fort Worth, Texas.
Now this is a city that knows how to live!!
Beautiful sunny days and warm balmy evenings. What a place!
I watched the sunset from a park lying on a blanket.
It was beautiful. I've finally found my home. I love it here.

June 14th:
Really heating up. Got to 100 today. Not a problem. Live in an
air-conditioned home, drive an air-conditioned car. What a pleasure
to see the sun everyday like this. I'm turning into a sun worshiper.

June 30th:
Had the backyard landscaped with western plants today. Lots of cactus
and rocks. What a breeze to maintain. No more mowing lawn for me.
Another scorch'er today, but I love it here.

July 10th:
The temperature hasn't been below 100 all week. How do people get used
to this kind of heat? At least it's kind of windy though. But getting
used to the heat and humidity is taking longer that I expected.

July 15th:
Fell asleep by the pool. (Got 3rd degree burns over 60% of my body).
Missed 3 days of work What a dumb thing to do. I learned my lesson
though. Got to respect the ol' sun in a climate like this.

July 20th:
I missed Morgan (our cat) sneaking into the car when I left this
morning. By the time I got to the hot car for lunch, Morgan had died
and swollen up to the size of a shopping bag and stank up the $2,000
leather upholstery. I told the kids that she ran away. The car now
smells like Kibbles and shits. I learned my lesson though.
No more pets in this heat.

July 25th:
The wind sucks.. It feels like a giant freaking blow dryer!!
And it's hot as hell. The home air-conditioner is not working and
the AC repairman charged $200 just to drive by and tell me
he needed to order parts.

July 30th:
Been sleeping outside by the pool for 3 nights now. $1,500 in damn
house payments and we can't even go inside. Why did I ever come here

Aug. 4th:
It's 115 degrees. Finally got the air-conditioner fixed today.
It cost $500 and gets the temperature down to 85, but this
freaking humidity makes the house feel like it's about 95.
Stupid repairman. I hate this stupid city.

Aug. 8th:
If another wise ass asks, "Hot enough for you today?" I'm going to
strangle him. Damn heat. By the time I get to work the radiator is
boiling over, my clothes are soaking wet, and I smell like baked cat!!

Aug. 9th:
Tried to run some errands after work. Wore shorts, and sat on the
black leather seats in the ol' car. I thought my ass was on fire.
I lost 2 layers of flesh and all the hair on the back of my legs and
ass. Now my car smells like burnt hair, fried ass, and baked cat.

Aug. 10th:
The weather report might as well be a damn recording. Hot and sunny.
Hot and sunny. Hot and sunny. It's been too hot to do shit for 2 damn
months and the weatherman says it might really warm up next week.
Doesn't it ever rain in this damn desert? Water rationing now, so my
$1700 worth of cactus just dried up and blew into the damn pool.
Even the cactus can't live in this damn heat.

Aug. 14th:
Welcome to HELL!! Temperature got to 115 today. Forgot to crack the
window and blew the damn windshield out of the car. The installer came
to fix it and said, "Hot enough for you today?" My wife had to spend
the $1500 house payment to bail me out of jail.

Freaking Texas.
What kind of a sick demented idiot would want to live here...

Waffen · Post by **Waffen** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:01 am

hahahahah I had to pass this one around the office. Thats great!

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:58 am

Toy my melted Texan friend it is a cool 57 degrees here this morning in Mid Michigan, where the sane people move when the leave Texas.
Just checked the temperature in the nearest weather recording station to Hell and it is 61 there at 8'56 AM ESDT.
So definitely it is hotter than Hell in the DFW area.

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:22 pm

bearandoldman wrote:So definitely it is hotter than Hell in the DFW area.

One of the local TV-wea-gals had a chart the other evening,
showing the year-record number of "days over 100F" at DFW.
This year is something like... 38(?)... and not yet in the TOP-TEN !!
Bear-in-Mind that when it 'drops below 100' here, it is NOT 78F,
it is 97/98... and only a curious-arithmetical-oddity of two-digits
but everybit just as HOT!!
The Sept-long-rang-outlook shows Sept to be "Warmer-than-normal"
and "Dryer-than-Normal"... yeah-Right !!
and we "PAY" the Wea-Dept for this information!! ?
When the Rifle-Range lifts the requirement of bringing our Ammo
in a "cooler" to avoid mis-fires... I'll come out of my den.

EDIT Wed-23Aug: 101
DFW hit 101 degrees on Wed aft. That makes 39 100 degree days
so far this year. So 2006 now moves into 8th place on the all time
100 degree day list, passing 1963 which had 38.
Seventh place belongs to 1951 with 40 100 degree days.
But 2006 is likely to match that mark on Sunday.

EDIT Thu-24Aug: 103
Thursday was the 40th day this year with a temperature of 100 degrees
or higher. This moves 2006 into a 7th place tie with 1951 in years
with most 100 degree days. Sixth place currently belongs to 1952
with 44 such days. We should reach 42 100 degree days by Saturday.
But after that temperatures should say below 100 for the forseeable future.

EDIT Fri-25Aug: 103
HEAT ADVISORY is extended through 7 PM Saturday.
We had another 100 degree day on Friday.
That makes 41 for the year and puts 2006 in seventh place
on the all time 100 degree day list. Number six is 1952 with 44.
Hopefully that record will stand as temperatures
will be a bit lower beginning Sunday.
NOTE: TWO of the 41-days were 'record HI days', back in early
April we had an unseasonal-HOT-SPELL a few days. The 39 thru
the summer-days have NOT BEEN RECORD HIs for the date.

EDIT Sat-26Aug: 101

Post by **Bullseye** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:20 pm

The NWS says you've only had one day this month where the high temp at DFW was under 100f. Yahoo! I have a friend who lives in Llano County and wanted me to relocate there, glad I never took him up on that offer.

R,
Bullseye

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:15 pm

Bullseye wrote:Llano County

Ahhh... Llano, TX
I, too, have a friend that owns some dirt in N. Llano County, on the creek,
near BabyHead Mt, ( Cherokee Orphanage is nearby, also )
but note the OnLine-History has been edited to be more Politically Correct.
My HardBack-Copy, v1p93, 1952 edition, reads:
BabyHead Mountain: In north central Llano County near the community
of Baby Head and BabyHead Creek, has an elevation of 1511 feet.
The mountain was named about 1850, when early settlers found that
the raiding Comanche had killed a captured white baby and put his
head on a pole on the mountain.

Last Oct (AFTER the worst of the SUMMER HEAT), I visited for a weekend
and we were shooting our guns like a couple RedNecks with a bucket of bullets...
We took a break in the shade to talk... and I looked up while about five
wild-pigs waddled less than 25 yards away... and WE DID NOT HAVE A GUN LOADED!!
by the time we fumbled to load-up, the pigs were running away and
laughing so hard as they ran that we couldn't hit any of them...
( a photo from a much earlier visit to the same place )

Perhaps we'd better return this HiJacked-thread to the topic of a Corona-Carafe

Charon · Post by **Charon** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:34 pm

The only thing I'd add for using a chronograph would be to suggest a few shots using factory ammunition, just to get a baseline. If your loads are in the same general area as factory stuff, you probably aren't doing anything very wrong. If yours is much faster, you might want to review your data. I'll not comment about slower, since I tend to load my stuff a bit light (slow) anyway.

allendavis · Post by **allendavis** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:45 pm

Charon wrote:The only thing I'd add for using a chronograph would be to suggest a few shots using factory ammunition, just to get a baseline. If your loads are in the same general area as factory stuff, you probably aren't doing anything very wrong. If yours is much faster, you might want to review your data. I'll not comment about slower, since I tend to load my stuff a bit light (slow) anyway.

I shoot very, very little factory ammo. That's because I handload most things (yet not all).

What pisses me off are the factory ammo "brags" about their velocity levels, which are almost always over-blown. Factory handgun ammo that I have tested are usually about 150-200 fps below their claims. I'm talking about Remington's Golden Sabres (.45 ACP), Federal's Hydra-Shoks (.45 ACP) and the Winchester Silvertips (.45 ACP and 9mm). Also, several other factory 9mm "self-defense" loads don't meet the factory claims.

Nevertheless, the ammo I mention above does seem to perform quite well in a wide variety of media, including ballistic gellatin (although I can't afford too much shooting with this stuff).

My "medium" loads usually exceed factory claims with jacketed bullets. Heck, even my lead-bullet practice loads meet factory claims for their high-performance stuff, and I don't have leading problems. Or pressure problems. I've got some 9mm and .45 ACP brass I've loaded 20 times or more.

One of the main reasons for getting a chronograph was to put a stop to all the smoke the ammo makers were blowing up my kilt. I also wanted to put the reloading manual publishers to the test, too. And they aren't looking all that great to me, either! I no longer pay any attention to any claims about velocity; just maximum loads, and those aren't always correct.

My two cents' worth.

Allen