What would you have done?

Dwight45 · Post by **Dwight45** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:23 pm

I only would have pulled my gun on him if he was threatening me or another innocent customer, certainly not to stop a robbery. One could argue that the robber posed enough of a threat to everyone's lives and limbs to justify such a response, but I don't think that would stand up in court.

Bud33 · Post by **Bud33** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:05 pm

ruger22 wrote:And robbing a BK? Was he a total idiot? The time for the crime is the same, so if he's going to risk jail, he might as well go after more serious cash.

I may be wrong, but based on what little the story actually said, that's my 2 cents.

You obviously are not aware of the way things are in southern Fl....even further north...
They are shooting old people in the Target parking lots because they didn't have any money!!!!
I personally don't think the Rambo approach is the best idea and discharging a weapon in an establishment that might have others in harms way is not a good idea either.
Having a permit to carry and having punched holes in a lot of paper does not make one qualified for armed combat.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:27 pm

Having a permit to carry and having punched holes in a lot of paper does not make one qualified for armed combat.

That's one of the main issues I have with people who carry, just because you carry doesn't make you a law officer. To me, IMO, it is a "last resort" situation. Plus the idea that the BK was crowded at then time. Could you imagine innocent bystanders getting hurt in this situation?, I can.
H

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon May 04, 2009 1:38 am

As my mentor taught me, every situation is different and the question of what you would do can never be really answered until it has to be. I would not argue with him, just let the foll take the money and leave. robbing a crowded BK, the guy must be on somethig. If he had presented a lethat threat to anyone, no argument just shoot and protect yourself and others, but you must be watchful of your field of fire.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:38 pm

As my mentor taught me, every situation is different and the question of what you would do can never be really answered until it has to be.

Good points OM, but I really think I could answer the question somewhat, even without being there. I know I would "not" pull out a gun and try to stop him initially, I'd be to *@#!ing scared to. I would, however, defend myself if I were threatened, or if he took the offensive at anybody else. There are so many things that can only be answered when "push comes to shove", as they say, (as you have said), cause talking about it and being there are two different things.
Haka

Post by **Bullseye** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:06 pm

I'm going to throw a curve into this discussion only for the purpose of furthering the discussion.

I've heard it said many times by advocates of liberal concealed carry who opine that only if a legally licensed handgun owner was in a place of an attack that the circumstances could have ended differently. I heard that from those who talked about the Luby's Restaurant shooting in Texas, the Virginia Tech shooting, even heard it about the Columbine shooting, there's many more examples, way too many to list. Here's an instance of a person with a valid concealed handgun permit taking aggressive action on an assailant committing an armed robbery with a deadly weapon. We will never know if this could have been a massacre, like so many other robberies have been, because a licensed permit holder stepped up and took positive action against the alleged criminal. But the perpetrator could have just as easily took the money, rounded up all the employees and customers, led them to the back of the store, and shot them to remove all potential witnesses, it has happened before.

I don't know what I would have done in this situation but If I believed that innocents would be harmed then it could have happened just that way to protect the lives of others. I'm just glad that I wasn't in that situation to begin with. However, how would I feel if I was there and I turned and walked away only to learn later that innocents died by my lack of action. It's a tough call and an ethical dilemma for sure.

R,
Bullseye

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:56 pm

Could have , should have, would have and what if, these are questions that are pretty much impossible to answer. If your state does not have the Castle Doctrine you have o retreat, so actually the BG has more rights than you. Just a robbery with no weapon does not qualify, you have to be threatened with death or great bodily har to you or other innocent bystanders, then you can shoot to stop the threat.
I carry at least one gun as I was taught any time I leave the house, just like the spare in my car I really don.t plan on using it but I know how to and will if required. He may get me but I am not going alone without a fight.
Remember newer fight an old guy because he will kill you for sure, we are mean and sneaky, that is how we got this old.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:02 pm

We will never know if this could have been a massacre, like so many other robberies have been, because a licensed permit holder stepped up and took positive action against the alleged criminal. But the perpetrator could have just as easily took the money, rounded up all the employees and customers, led them to the back of the store, and shot them to remove all potential witnesses, it has happened before.
I don't know what I would have done in this situation but If I believed that innocents would be harmed then it could have happened just that way to protect the lives of others. I'm just glad that I wasn't in that situation to begin with. However, how would I feel if I was there and I turned and walked away only to learn later that innocents died by my lack of action.

We can not protect everybody, even though we would like to. If the robber threatens me, he's going down.

I'll go out on a limb and describe what I would do (even though OM thinks I'm crazy) Scenerio: I'm single, no loved ones in the store with me, robber comes in and holds up the cashier....Many people panicking and exiting the doors......I slide back to cover, draw my firearm, and wait for the robber to indicate what he will escalate to.....He gets to aggresive where I think he will fire, or approaches me....he meets his maker.....bottom line.
comment: I think the CPL'r acted too soon, and without cover, and surprise.
Result: Robber dead(not necessarily a total bad thing), and the CPL'r seriously injured(don't know his condition)
Haka

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:19 pm

In the first place the CPL holder started to argue with him, that was a bad idea he shpould have just shot him and been done with it. The BG has the time from when he sees my gun to drop his or he will drop. I can just imagine some LEO asking why I shot the guy 3 time, well, he fell on his face and was no longer a threat befoore I could get the 4th shot off.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:23 pm

Ye Loquacious Olde Pharte

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top
In the first place the CPL holder started to argue with him, that was a bad idea he shpould have just shot him and been done with it. The BG has the time from when he sees my gun to drop his or he will drop. I can just imagine some LEO asking why I shot the guy 3 time, well, he fell on his face and was no longer a threat befoore I could get the 4th shot off.

LOL, OM

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:29 pm

I am an old man and I plan on getting a lot older yet, so all ye BG's beware of old people. If you ask me if I have a gun I will most likely tell you no and if you attack me and get shot you can call me a damned old liar. Most people would probably really be surprised if they knew I always carry 2 guns. One for the right hand and the other for the left, just in case I can not use one hand the other will do fine and, yes I can shoot left handed or right handed or both handed at the same time. Told you us old guys are sneaky.

Dwight45 · Post by **Dwight45** » Wed May 06, 2009 12:25 am

In my heart I feel that some clown just holding up a cashier at gunpoint with customers around is enough of a threat to the customers and I to justify shooting him. But I don't know if the law would agree with me in many states. I'd hate to do time even as a hero. In other words, if in doubt I wouldn't shoot.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:48 am

Dwight45 wrote:In my heart I feel that some clown just holding up a cashier at gunpoint with customers around is enough of a threat to the customers and I to justify shooting him. But I don't know if the law would agree with me in many states. I'd hate to do time even as a hero. In other words, if in doubt I wouldn't shoot.

All depends on the laws in your state. Some states that do not have the Castle Doctrine you have to retreat until there is no place else to retreat too. In that case you relay do not have the right to protect yourself or others. In some states the criminal has more rights than an honest law abiding citizen.

Dwight45 · Post by **Dwight45** » Wed May 06, 2009 11:11 am

That's so sad Len.

greener · Post by **greener** » Wed May 06, 2009 11:42 am

Bullseye wrote:I'm going to throw a curve into this discussion only for the purpose of furthering the discussion.

I've heard it said many times by advocates of liberal concealed carry who opine that only if a legally licensed handgun owner was in a place of an attack that the circumstances could have ended differently. I heard that from those who talked about the Luby's Restaurant shooting in Texas, the Virginia Tech shooting, even heard it about the Columbine shooting, there's many more examples, way too many to list. Here's an instance of a person with a valid concealed handgun permit taking aggressive action on an assailant committing an armed robbery with a deadly weapon. We will never know if this could have been a massacre, like so many other robberies have been, because a licensed permit holder stepped up and took positive action against the alleged criminal. But the perpetrator could have just as easily took the money, rounded up all the employees and customers, led them to the back of the store, and shot them to remove all potential witnesses, it has happened before.

I don't know what I would have done in this situation but If I believed that innocents would be harmed then it could have happened just that way to protect the lives of others. I'm just glad that I wasn't in that situation to begin with. However, how would I feel if I was there and I turned and walked away only to learn later that innocents died by my lack of action. It's a tough call and an ethical dilemma for sure.

R,
Bullseye

Pretty good curve.

The first time I loaded one and put it in the nightstand drawer, I pretty much had decided that there were circumstances that I would use it. When I got a CCW and started carrying, I pretty much decided that there were circumstances that I would use it. Those circumstances haven't changed in 40 years, if I believe I'm in a life-threatening situation, I will use deadly force. The only thing that has changed in 4 decades is I have become less confident in my physical ability to avoid such situations and I've increasingly noticed the world is not a nice place at times. If you are going to keep a firearm loaded and/or carry, you need to be darned certain that you will use it and the circumstances you will use it.

Whether being armed in one of the tragedies mentioned would have decreased the number is very debatable. I think I'd prefer being a victim who had some defense rather than a helpless victim. Maybe it would have made a difference. However, a college or school campus is the last place you'd expect to need protection. Would you have carried in those situations?

Shooting it out in a crowded Burger King? It is one of those things that you would have to be there to decide. I've been in one situation that I had the hammer back on a revolver with a light SA trigger and was milliseconds from twitching my trigger finger. Fortunately the other guy got the message. I hope that is the only time I'm in that situation.