What would you have done?

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:36 pm

This is a website to a shooting that happened in florida at a Burger King. As a ccw/cpl individual, please comment on the story if you wish.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southfl ... 66133.html
or
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breakin ... 68765.html
Haka

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:43 pm

Hakaman wrote:This is a website to a shooting that happened in florida at a Burger King. As a ccw/cpl individual, please comment on the story if you wish.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southfl ... 66133.html

Haka

Don't think I would have argued with him as if he had a gun and I felt threeaten4d, it is my right o protect myself and shoot until the threat is gone. I he drops to the floor and drops his gun the threat is gone, if he dies it was his choice. Better he than me.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:46 pm

A question I have is this: Did he have any right within the law to approach the robber and ask him to put down his gun? Isn't this what police do?
Sargeant haka

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:52 pm

Hakaman wrote:A question I have is this: Did he have any right within the law to approach the robber and ask him to put down his gun? Isn't this what police do?
Sargeant haka

Don't know about warnings but when he sees the gun in my hand he can drop his or suffer the consequences. If he drops the gun the threat is gone, I can not shoot as I am no longer threatened. I don't believe under those circumstances a LEO has to ask him to put his gun down either, he makes his own choice. If a person has a gun pointed at you and you tell him to drop it the advantage is with the bad guy. Better in jail than dead.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:55 pm

Better in jail than dead.

I don't know about that. I have heard rumors about what they do to people while in jail. Ouch!

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:48 pm

unfortunately, having a "CHL" does not make one
a marksman, experienced on handling armed-confrontations..

it just means that this guy is not known as being a bad-guy...

It is akin to taking a DrivingTest... you passed the test,
you know the speed limit and school-zone limits and
to stop at red lights... NOT that you magically know how
to drive in the rain, ice, avoid a deer or stay awake on a long trip...
just that you have the license to "try"...

My life has not exposed me to "confrontation"...
so, I am in-experienced to speak up...
The news item may have been brief and omitted details,
BUT... it reads like the "CHL" told the robber to 'drop your gun'.
sounds like he's been watching too many TV/Movies...

the 9mm -vs- .380 seems like a fairly even situation,
either way, I'd still need new underwear !!
-- toy

SKnight · Post by **SKnight** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:49 pm

I have my CCW. It depends on the situation, snap decision is to draw and put a slug in his ear but that would be on me since he's not a threat to me.

Hopefully I would tell handle it very tactically, tell him I have a weapon and to freeze, set the weapon down slowly, take five steps away from the weapon and lay face down. If he turns toward me then last thing he'd see is a muzzle flash. This also depends on if I can cleanly draw my weapon.

But the reality is, ask me after it happens. The pressure of the situation may change my reaction. Having drawn my weapon in fear before, I can say what you do usually isn't the absolute best thing.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:01 pm

Still will stay with my original viewpoint, but sure as Hell do hope that is not a decision I will ever have to make. The only one that can answer that truly is the guy that has been there. My mentor has been there 11 times and those are things we did not generally discuss. If he wanted to talk about it he would have. He is very prominent in his church but also did his job as a LEO to the best of his ability. And yes would most likely need underwear and maybe clean jeans also. I carry because it is my right and to protect innocent people as I am just too damned old to fight, hand to hand.

toyfj40 · Post by **toyfj40** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:04 pm

bearandoldman wrote:If he wanted to talk about it he would have.

I'm not sure I'd discuss such experiences either...
BUT... it does leave "us" to have to learn in the emergency...
and deprives us of trying to learn from the experiences of others...

after reading some posted 'comments' on the news-source site...
I must add that the "CHL" is to be commended for his action
and prayers for his thorough physical and personal recovery.
The 'perp' was using a gun to commit a crime and could be
assumed that he intended to use it. I'm thankful that the
story does not report a list of innocent victims...
-- toy

a smart man learns from his mistakes...
a wise man learns from the mistakes of others

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:18 pm

To shoot or not is a question that only you can answer and only at the time it happens, you can plan and prepare but you will always be in doubt until the answer is required, and no time to think it over.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:55 pm

I also read some of the other posts in the story. What bothers me is that many "heroes" (for lack of better word) think they know exactly what they would do in that situation, like, it would be nothing to shoot the robber. I'm a believer that it is quite an emotional ordeal to be involved in, and I'm not going to be "Mr. Bravado" and save the whole world. In other words, talk is cheap. In michigan, I think it's stated as a "last resort issue". I don't think that was the case in the story, but maybe the law is different down there.
h

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:25 am

Hakaman wrote: In Michigan, I think it's stated as a "last resort issue". I don't think that was the case in the story, but maybe the law is different down there.
h

Actually until a year or two ago that's the way it was before the Castle Doctrine was put into the State Laws. You had to retreat until you were trapped with no escape, this sure put the odd in favor of the BG. Under the Castle you no longer have to retreat from any area where you have a right to be, add you have a right to protect yourself and others from death or great bodily harm. You are allowed to shoot to stop the threat and when the threat is gone you can no longer shoot. You are limited in distance to 7 yards any farther than that and the BG is not considered a threat. So you put 4 230 grain JHP's to Com and the BG falls over backwards, one between the eyes is a NO NO as he is no longer a threat. If after the same conditions he turns and runs, no shooting in the back as he is no longer a threat and if he is really moving he is probably Superman anyway. IK carry at least one any time I leave tyhe house and I do have a spare tire in my car also, I also hope that I never have to use either one of them.

smokey · Post by **smokey** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:29 am

bearandoldman wrote:
Hakaman wrote: In Michigan, I think it's stated as a "last resort issue". I don't think that was the case in the story, but maybe the law is different down there.
h
Actually until a year or two ago that's the way it was before the Castle Doctrine was put into the State Laws. You had to retreat until you were trapped with no escape, this sure put the odd in favor of the BG. Under the Castle you no longer have to retreat from any area where you have a right to be, add you have a right to protect yourself and others from death or great bodily harm. You are allowed to shoot to stop the threat and when the threat is gone you can no longer shoot. You are limited in distance to 7 yards any farther than that and the BG is not considered a threat. So you put 4 230 grain JHP's to Com and the BG falls over backwards, one between the eyes is a NO NO as he is no longer a threat. If after the same conditions he turns and runs, no shooting in the back as he is no longer a threat and if he is really moving he is probably Superman anyway. IK carry at least one any time I leave tyhe house and I do have a spare tire in my car also, I also hope that I never have to use either one of them.

I'm with you. I have my CCL and carry anywhere and anytime legal. I hope and pray that I never have to use my gun but if I have too, I will.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:54 pm

I carry a spare tire and wheel in my car and a battery pack, just in case I should need them Talked to too many guys that say, Oh I only carry it in m bag in the back of the car or I only carry it if I am going to the bad part of town. Hey the bad guys come to the better part of town because that is where all the good stuff is.

ruger22 · Post by **ruger22** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:03 pm

Inside a crowded BK was no place for a confrontation. The story does not give a second to second account of what went down, but I'd say the guy Rambo'd out and blew it.

In this situation, getting a good look at him, and hopefully his vehicle and tag, seems sufficient. The chances the guy would have actually fired are slim, even if the clerk refused him money. The more psycho types hit an empty place, usually late.

And robbing a BK? Was he a total idiot? The time for the crime is the same, so if he's going to risk jail, he might as well go after more serious cash.

I may be wrong, but based on what little the story actually said, that's my 2 cents.

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